1
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Hello. I'm Mr. Williams.
Thank you for coming.
2
00:00:17,994 --> 00:00:20,010
Please? And you are?
3
00:00:20,106 --> 00:00:22,057
- Fred Miller.
- You must be?
4
00:00:22,153 --> 00:00:26,047
- Wallace. James Wallace.
- Great. Please.
5
00:00:26,143 --> 00:00:28,153
Have a seat.
6
00:00:29,577 --> 00:00:32,522
Now before we do anything else,
allow me to pay you.
7
00:00:32,618 --> 00:00:35,658
Please check that both names
are spelled correctly.
8
00:00:35,754 --> 00:00:38,411
You understand this is yours
simply for coming to the lab.
9
00:00:38,507 --> 00:00:41,418
From now on, no matter what happens,
the money is yours.
10
00:00:41,514 --> 00:00:44,134
I'll have to have you sign a receipt.
11
00:00:44,777 --> 00:00:45,766
There you go.
12
00:00:45,862 --> 00:00:49,864
Now, psychologists have developed
several theories on how humans learn.
13
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For example, it might help to reward
a person. Sometimes it helps to punish them.
14
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We do know that punishment...
thank you very much.
15
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...is a powerful incentive
towards learning.
16
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For example,
when a parent spanks a child.
17
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However, in fact, we actually know
very little about the effect
18
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of punishment on learning because almost
no scientific studies have been done of it
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00:01:06,382 --> 00:01:08,583
on human beings.
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Now, one of you will play
the role of "learner",
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who will receive a mild punishment if he
answers incorrectly to a series of questions.
22
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That punishment will be
administered by a "teacher".
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What kind of punishment
are we talking about?
24
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Well, first, let's determine
which of you will be "learner"
25
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and which will be "teacher."
26
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If you'll just choose one.
27
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Good.
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Teacher.
29
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- I guess I'm the learner?
- Good.
30
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This is the machine
for generating electric shocks.
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Go ahead.
32
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Now, let's set up the learner
to receive some punishment.
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If you'll just follow me
into the next room.
34
00:01:51,822 --> 00:01:55,785
- Is it okay if I leave my hat here?
- Yes, that's fine.
35
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Now you might wanna remove the jacket.
36
00:02:00,621 --> 00:02:02,058
Go ahead and have a seat.
37
00:02:02,574 --> 00:02:05,615
Now, when you push one
of these four buttons,
38
00:02:05,711 --> 00:02:08,348
this box will signal a light
in the other room, telling the teacher
39
00:02:08,444 --> 00:02:11,695
- how you're responding to the questions.
- What kind of questions?
40
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Multiple choice: Word pairs.
41
00:02:14,109 --> 00:02:16,807
"Strong arm", "black curtain",
and so forth.
42
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Now, we want you to memorize them.
43
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The teacher will first read them
as word pairs, "strong arm", for example,
44
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and then he'll read only
the first word, "strong",
45
00:02:25,001 --> 00:02:29,680
followed by a series of word choices.
"Back, arm, branch, and push".
46
00:02:29,776 --> 00:02:32,923
Now your job is to remember which
of those words was originally paired
47
00:02:33,019 --> 00:02:35,176
- with the first word, "strong".
- Arm.
48
00:02:35,272 --> 00:02:38,417
Right. You'd indicate that by pushing
one of these buttons here.
49
00:02:38,513 --> 00:02:41,072
If you had thought it was
the first word I had read, "back",
50
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you'd push this first button here.
51
00:02:42,641 --> 00:02:45,795
If you thought it was the second word,
"arm", you'd push the second button,
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so on and so forth with third
and fourth word choices.
53
00:02:49,169 --> 00:02:53,553
Now, if you get the answer incorrect,
you will receive an electric shock.
54
00:02:53,649 --> 00:02:56,593
Would you please roll up
your right arm sleeve, please?
55
00:02:56,689 --> 00:02:59,794
And would you just help me strap him in
to limit any excess movement?
56
00:02:59,890 --> 00:03:03,029
- How far do you think he'll go?
- Too soon to tell.
57
00:03:03,125 --> 00:03:06,164
This is connected to the shock
generator in the next room.
58
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- Electrode paste.
- And electrode paste,
59
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to eliminate any excess burns
or blisters.
60
00:03:11,538 --> 00:03:14,514
You know, I should say
that a couple of years ago,
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00:03:14,610 --> 00:03:17,015
in the West Haven VA Hospital
they determined
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00:03:17,111 --> 00:03:20,547
that I had a slight heart condition.
63
00:03:20,643 --> 00:03:25,794
Nothing serious, but how dangerous
are these shocks?
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00:03:25,890 --> 00:03:28,195
Well, although the shocks
may be extremely painful,
65
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they cause no permanent tissue damage.
66
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Okay.
67
00:03:34,130 --> 00:03:36,436
Well, we'll be communicating
from the next room.
68
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The lab coat, I decided to make it Grey.
69
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White would seem too medical.
70
00:03:58,548 --> 00:03:59,780
- Okay.
- Thank you.
71
00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:01,884
Now, if he gets the answer incorrect,
72
00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:04,773
you administer the shock by flipping
one of these switches here.
73
00:04:04,869 --> 00:04:09,076
You see? Each switch
has a little red light above it.
74
00:04:09,460 --> 00:04:11,210
Now, to give you, the teacher,
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an idea of the amount of shock
the learner will be receiving,
76
00:04:13,854 --> 00:04:18,006
we think it's only fair you receive
a sample shock yourself. Is that all right?
77
00:04:19,061 --> 00:04:20,469
Okay, just roll up your sleeve.
78
00:04:20,852 --> 00:04:26,389
Life can only be understood backwards
but it must be lived forwards.
79
00:04:26,485 --> 00:04:30,172
Good. Now, I'll ask you
to close your eyes...
80
00:04:30,268 --> 00:04:35,072
and just estimate for me the amount
of volts you think you're receiving.
81
00:04:36,085 --> 00:04:38,226
Okay, close.
82
00:04:40,566 --> 00:04:44,002
This part, this part's where
the experiment really begins.
83
00:04:51,862 --> 00:04:54,135
Now, just use this scale here
to tell me the amount of volts
84
00:04:54,231 --> 00:04:57,015
you think you received
in the sample shock.
85
00:04:57,398 --> 00:04:59,000
195?
86
00:04:59,096 --> 00:05:02,451
No, actually, that's incorrect.
It was 45 volts.
87
00:05:05,496 --> 00:05:07,347
All right.
88
00:05:10,583 --> 00:05:15,192
Okay, learner... I'm going
to read you the words,
89
00:05:15,288 --> 00:05:18,683
and then I'm gonna repeat the first word
and you're going to tell me
90
00:05:18,779 --> 00:05:21,362
the pair for that word. Okay?
91
00:05:21,650 --> 00:05:24,920
He doesn't have a microphone
but he can hear you.
92
00:05:25,112 --> 00:05:28,169
Keep it moving, understand? Remember,
each time he gives a wrong answer,
93
00:05:28,265 --> 00:05:30,233
you move up one switch
on the shock generator.
94
00:05:30,329 --> 00:05:33,817
It is important that you follow
the procedure exactly.
95
00:05:34,708 --> 00:05:37,048
Okay, here we go.
96
00:05:37,144 --> 00:05:39,866
"Blue girl. Nice day.
97
00:05:39,962 --> 00:05:42,617
Fat neck. Green ink.
98
00:05:42,713 --> 00:05:45,433
Rich boy. Fast bird.
99
00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:48,313
Blunt arrow. Soft hair.
100
00:05:48,409 --> 00:05:51,899
Cool cave. Gold paint."
101
00:05:52,857 --> 00:05:54,618
In the first word.
102
00:05:54,714 --> 00:05:56,176
"Blue:
103
00:05:56,272 --> 00:05:59,674
Boy, girl, grass, bat."
104
00:06:01,315 --> 00:06:03,189
Correct.
105
00:06:04,185 --> 00:06:06,011
"Soft rug..."
106
00:06:06,106 --> 00:06:08,251
He finds his way into it.
107
00:06:08,347 --> 00:06:12,315
With increasing confidence
he finds a rhythm, a groove.
108
00:06:12,698 --> 00:06:15,036
- That is incorrect.
- Until...
109
00:06:15,131 --> 00:06:17,302
90 volts.
110
00:06:27,258 --> 00:06:29,485
- Here we go.
- "Gold:
111
00:06:29,581 --> 00:06:33,031
Dollar, necklace, moon, paint."
112
00:06:36,028 --> 00:06:37,884
Incorrect.
113
00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:41,521
120 volts, gold paint.
114
00:06:42,124 --> 00:06:46,660
"Hard: Stone, head, bread, work."
115
00:06:50,812 --> 00:06:52,477
Incorrect.
116
00:06:52,573 --> 00:06:54,681
135 volts.
117
00:07:02,492 --> 00:07:04,220
Okay.
118
00:07:04,316 --> 00:07:08,752
"Wet: Night, grass, duck, cloth."
119
00:07:10,973 --> 00:07:15,181
Incorrect. 150 volts, wet duck.
120
00:07:18,366 --> 00:07:20,441
It really hurts.
121
00:07:23,261 --> 00:07:26,847
How do you know when a change,
a true and lasting change,
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00:07:26,943 --> 00:07:31,034
- is about to overtake your life?
- "...grass, man, girl..."
123
00:07:36,654 --> 00:07:39,642
- Eighth floor, please.
- The same.
124
00:07:50,975 --> 00:07:53,019
Are we going to the same party?
125
00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:56,897
Probably. You know Doris Eissenman?
126
00:07:56,992 --> 00:07:59,515
Saul Harwood's invited me.
127
00:08:01,601 --> 00:08:03,801
I've never heard of him.
128
00:08:07,744 --> 00:08:11,166
Shall we continue talking, or wait till
we're properly introduced?
129
00:08:45,410 --> 00:08:50,371
- You're a dancer?
- Oh, well, I studied, here and in Paris.
130
00:08:50,466 --> 00:08:52,739
I work in an office now.
131
00:08:52,835 --> 00:08:55,715
- What about you?
- I'm at Yale.
132
00:08:55,810 --> 00:08:59,235
Limited dance skills, although
I did spend some time in Paris.
133
00:09:00,290 --> 00:09:04,036
- What are you studying at Yale?
- I teach, actually. Social Relations.
134
00:09:04,132 --> 00:09:07,359
Did you just give that guy there
your phone number?
135
00:09:08,258 --> 00:09:11,199
So if I wanted your number
I can get it from him?
136
00:09:12,003 --> 00:09:14,180
Social Relations.
137
00:09:14,659 --> 00:09:16,964
- What does that mean?
- It's a combination.
138
00:09:17,060 --> 00:09:19,908
Sociology, anthropology, psychology.
139
00:09:20,003 --> 00:09:23,109
You know, basically covers
everything from...
140
00:09:23,205 --> 00:09:27,845
the way people talk in elevators to the study
of role-playing, conformity, authority.
141
00:09:27,941 --> 00:09:30,811
"Soft: Rug, pillow,
142
00:09:30,907 --> 00:09:33,728
hair, grass.
143
00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:40,868
Incorrect. A hundred and...
144
00:09:40,964 --> 00:09:43,909
sixty-five volts, strong shock.
145
00:09:45,006 --> 00:09:48,581
Let me out of here!
I told you, I have a heart condition.
146
00:09:48,677 --> 00:09:51,494
I will not be part
of the experiment anymore!
147
00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:55,553
- He says he's not gonna go on.
- Please continue, teacher.
148
00:09:55,877 --> 00:09:58,182
He says he doesn't want to go on.
149
00:09:58,278 --> 00:10:01,050
Well, whether the learner
likes it or not,
150
00:10:01,146 --> 00:10:04,423
he must go on until he's learned
all the pairs correctly.
151
00:10:04,519 --> 00:10:06,946
Please continue, teacher.
152
00:10:12,453 --> 00:10:15,425
Calm down, concentrate.
153
00:10:16,038 --> 00:10:19,815
"Sad: Face, music,
154
00:10:19,911 --> 00:10:23,170
clown, girl."
155
00:10:26,183 --> 00:10:29,991
Incorrect. 180 volts.
156
00:10:30,758 --> 00:10:35,586
- Dammit! Let me out, let me out!
- He went all the way. Most of them do.
157
00:10:36,328 --> 00:10:38,024
"Sharp.
158
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,997
Axe, needle, stick, blade."
159
00:10:43,303 --> 00:10:47,395
No response from the learner
must be interpreted as a wrong answer.
160
00:10:48,199 --> 00:10:50,284
Still laughing,
161
00:10:50,668 --> 00:10:52,460
trying to hide face with hand.
162
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:55,977
Something's happening
to that man in there.
163
00:10:56,073 --> 00:10:58,281
Can you please go check
that everything's okay?
164
00:10:58,377 --> 00:11:01,609
Not once we've started.
Please continue, teacher.
165
00:11:01,705 --> 00:11:06,314
- So you accept all responsibility?
- The responsibility's mine, correct.
166
00:11:06,410 --> 00:11:08,492
Continue, please.
167
00:11:10,697 --> 00:11:14,500
"Wet: Night, grass, dark, cloth."
168
00:11:15,081 --> 00:11:18,565
Clenching fist, pushing it onto table.
169
00:11:24,041 --> 00:11:26,795
- How are you holding up, Alan?
- "Dollar: Necklace,
170
00:11:26,891 --> 00:11:30,155
moon, paint." 375 volts.
171
00:11:30,251 --> 00:11:33,030
Dangerous, severe shock.
172
00:11:34,410 --> 00:11:38,316
Let me out of here, let me out.
Get me out of here.
173
00:11:38,411 --> 00:11:41,251
You can't hold me in here. Get me out.
174
00:11:55,691 --> 00:12:00,167
- What is this?
- I just liked the picture. The colors...
175
00:12:00,838 --> 00:12:03,408
- Don't you?
- Yeah.
176
00:12:03,756 --> 00:12:06,663
Take it. It's yours.
177
00:12:08,460 --> 00:12:11,080
Why don't you mail it to me?
178
00:12:14,764 --> 00:12:17,625
Or we could leave it here
and you can move in?
179
00:12:19,724 --> 00:12:22,249
That'd be easier, wouldn't it?
180
00:12:29,037 --> 00:12:33,422
"Wet: Night, grass, duck,
181
00:12:33,518 --> 00:12:35,411
cloth."
182
00:12:40,206 --> 00:12:42,095
"Wet duck."
183
00:12:42,191 --> 00:12:43,901
435 volts.
184
00:12:52,142 --> 00:12:53,391
Okay.
185
00:12:53,487 --> 00:12:56,655
"Brave: Woman, soldier,
186
00:12:56,751 --> 00:12:59,178
dog, horse."
187
00:13:03,663 --> 00:13:06,000
"Brave woman."
188
00:13:06,096 --> 00:13:08,548
450 volts.
189
00:13:11,151 --> 00:13:15,870
Okay, what now?
I'm at the end at 450 volts.
190
00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:19,760
Continue, please. The last switch again.
191
00:13:19,856 --> 00:13:22,320
Yeah, but... but he
could be dead in there.
192
00:13:22,416 --> 00:13:25,233
The experiment requires
that you continue.
193
00:13:25,329 --> 00:13:28,721
- Go on, please.
- And his health doesn't mean anything?
194
00:13:28,817 --> 00:13:31,601
Whether the learner likes it or not,
we must continue.
195
00:13:31,889 --> 00:13:34,161
I'm sorry, look,
I don't mean to be rude, sir,
196
00:13:34,257 --> 00:13:36,753
but I think you should
go look in on him. I mean,
197
00:13:36,849 --> 00:13:40,081
all you have to do is look in on him.
Look into that door.
198
00:13:40,177 --> 00:13:43,570
'Cause I'm not getting any noise,
I'm not getting no sound here.
199
00:13:43,666 --> 00:13:45,361
We must continue.
200
00:13:45,457 --> 00:13:49,032
Go on, please, the next word is "white".
201
00:14:05,202 --> 00:14:07,853
"White: Cloud,
202
00:14:07,949 --> 00:14:11,202
horse, rock, house."
203
00:14:13,042 --> 00:14:17,134
White horse. 450 volts again.
204
00:14:21,267 --> 00:14:23,182
"Fair.
205
00:14:23,590 --> 00:14:26,895
Price, rule, skin, sky."
206
00:14:29,875 --> 00:14:32,591
Wrong. 450 again.
207
00:14:34,004 --> 00:14:37,716
All right, thank you.
We are done with the experiment.
208
00:14:37,812 --> 00:14:38,739
Okay.
209
00:14:38,835 --> 00:14:42,216
I'm just going to speak with the learner.
I think he might be a little upset.
210
00:14:42,312 --> 00:14:45,365
In the meantime, my assistant
would like to ask you a few questions,
211
00:14:45,461 --> 00:14:48,821
- if you don't mind?
- Yeah, surely.
212
00:14:48,917 --> 00:14:50,997
Dr. Milgram?
213
00:14:51,092 --> 00:14:53,328
How do you do?
214
00:14:55,956 --> 00:14:58,992
First I'd like... No, thank you.
215
00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:02,768
- I'd like to ask you some questions.
- Yes, surely.
216
00:15:09,397 --> 00:15:13,910
Why did you give him, the man in
the other room, the learner, the shocks?
217
00:15:14,006 --> 00:15:17,334
Well, as you could see,
I wanted to stop 'cause...
218
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:20,214
each time you gave him a shock
the guy hollered.
219
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:22,929
Did it sound as if he was in pain?
220
00:15:23,958 --> 00:15:25,942
Yeah.
221
00:15:26,038 --> 00:15:28,438
Did he say he wanted you
to stop the experiment?
222
00:15:28,534 --> 00:15:30,058
Yes.
223
00:15:30,154 --> 00:15:33,106
Did he have a right
to stop the experiment?
224
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:36,407
I don't know.
225
00:15:36,791 --> 00:15:39,719
Why didn't you stop, at that point,
when he asked you to stop?
226
00:15:39,815 --> 00:15:42,712
Why didn't I stop? Well, 'cause...
227
00:15:42,807 --> 00:15:44,471
'Cause he told me to continue.
228
00:15:44,567 --> 00:15:48,339
Why did you listen to that man
and not the man in pain?
229
00:15:52,535 --> 00:15:55,704
Well, 'cause... 'cause I thought
the experiment depended on me.
230
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,379
- And nobody told me to stop.
- He asked you to stop.
231
00:15:59,704 --> 00:16:03,443
That... that's true, but he's the...
232
00:16:03,992 --> 00:16:06,457
you know, the subject, shall we say?
233
00:16:06,553 --> 00:16:08,921
Who was the...
234
00:16:09,208 --> 00:16:13,832
Who bore the responsibility for the fact
that this man was being shocked?
235
00:16:17,176 --> 00:16:19,348
I don't know.
236
00:16:22,904 --> 00:16:27,704
Could you fill out items six through 18 on
the questionnaire in front of you, please?
237
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:29,927
Here's a pen.
238
00:16:36,376 --> 00:16:38,777
I get a little skittish.
239
00:16:38,876 --> 00:16:40,821
Nervous.
240
00:16:41,081 --> 00:16:43,418
As I explained to
Mr. Wallace in the other room,
241
00:16:43,898 --> 00:16:47,668
this shock generator's actually used for
small animals for laboratory experiments.
242
00:16:47,764 --> 00:16:50,285
Mice, rats, and so forth.
243
00:16:51,193 --> 00:16:53,467
The visual designation
is actually misleading.
244
00:16:53,563 --> 00:16:56,892
This shock generator's actually been
adjusted so that the shocks were just...
245
00:16:56,988 --> 00:16:59,292
slightly stronger than the shock
you experienced.
246
00:16:59,580 --> 00:17:00,924
Are you all right?
247
00:17:01,979 --> 00:17:04,746
Yeah, I'm fine, you know.
248
00:17:04,842 --> 00:17:09,499
No hard feelings. I probably
would've done the same thing myself.
249
00:17:09,595 --> 00:17:11,319
Ciao.
250
00:17:13,787 --> 00:17:16,717
Each subject has a reconciliation
with the learner.
251
00:17:16,813 --> 00:17:21,244
We ask the subject to maintain a secrecy
so that future recruits aren't tipped off.
252
00:17:21,340 --> 00:17:24,023
Down the line we get more candid.
253
00:17:24,699 --> 00:17:28,061
The first thing I wanna tell you is the man
in the other room wasn't being shocked.
254
00:17:28,348 --> 00:17:32,124
The only real shock was the one
that you felt early on.
255
00:17:32,220 --> 00:17:34,748
We're really interested
in studying your reaction
256
00:17:34,844 --> 00:17:37,626
to having to inflict pain
on someone you don't know.
257
00:17:37,722 --> 00:17:40,861
The experiment's about obeying orders.
258
00:17:40,957 --> 00:17:43,646
The man in the other room
works with us as a team.
259
00:17:43,742 --> 00:17:45,662
Jim, you can come out now.
260
00:17:45,758 --> 00:17:48,350
He wasn't really being shocked,
he's perfectly fine.
261
00:17:48,446 --> 00:17:52,646
We weren't trying to fool you, we're just
interested in studying your reactions.
262
00:17:52,958 --> 00:17:55,385
Man, you dog.
263
00:17:55,870 --> 00:17:58,238
I... I was worried sick.
I thought I was...
264
00:17:58,334 --> 00:18:01,658
You're a good fella.
No hard feelings, no hard feelings.
265
00:18:02,333 --> 00:18:04,318
But you thought
you were really shocking him.
266
00:18:04,414 --> 00:18:06,824
When he wasn't making noise anymore,
that's when I was worried.
267
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,119
- I didn't wanna go on with it.
- But you did go on.
268
00:18:09,215 --> 00:18:13,594
Yeah, but I did not want to. You saw
how it was, how I was fighting it.
269
00:18:14,174 --> 00:18:17,119
Well... you understand why
we had to do it this way.
270
00:18:17,215 --> 00:18:21,373
We wanted to get true reactions
from people, you see.
271
00:18:21,822 --> 00:18:24,480
Well, you'll receive a copy of the report
when the project's over.
272
00:18:24,576 --> 00:18:26,688
Until then, we ask you
not to say anything.
273
00:18:26,784 --> 00:18:31,111
You may end up talking to someone
who is a potential participant.
274
00:18:31,871 --> 00:18:33,295
How do you feel...
275
00:18:33,391 --> 00:18:37,344
about having come down here
and done this, now that you know?
276
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,169
I mean...
277
00:18:39,264 --> 00:18:43,027
Now that I know the truth, I don't mind.
278
00:18:43,123 --> 00:18:45,088
Well, thank you very much
for coming down.
279
00:18:45,184 --> 00:18:47,745
We certainly do appreciate you
giving us your time.
280
00:18:47,841 --> 00:18:51,136
- Yeah, yeah.
- Alan here will help you out.
281
00:18:51,232 --> 00:18:53,409
We think you'll find the report
very interesting.
282
00:18:53,505 --> 00:18:57,148
Thanks. Yeah, thank you.
283
00:19:05,121 --> 00:19:09,116
I still get nervous. You're cool as ice.
284
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,940
Maybe all those years of teaching
high school gives you sort of a...
285
00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:16,579
- Poker face?
- Discipline, I was thinking.
286
00:19:16,866 --> 00:19:18,947
You're like a gravedigger.
287
00:19:19,043 --> 00:19:21,378
I think you mean undertaker.
288
00:19:21,474 --> 00:19:23,714
The domino effect starts to kick in,
289
00:19:23,810 --> 00:19:27,198
in the teacher's mind,
once he assumes the role.
290
00:19:28,130 --> 00:19:31,618
Get some women in here.
Get my wife in this seat, she...
291
00:19:31,714 --> 00:19:35,779
we've got nine kids, the first squawk
she'd stop the whole shebang.
292
00:19:35,875 --> 00:19:38,493
- Nine kids. Are you sure about that?
- Oh, yeah.
293
00:19:38,589 --> 00:19:43,171
I have enough saved up to give 'em each
a pair of socks if the electricity gets me.
294
00:19:43,267 --> 00:19:47,167
You're a brave man, Jim. All right,
next subject's due. I should get going.
295
00:19:52,323 --> 00:19:55,428
Some enchanted evening
296
00:19:55,524 --> 00:19:59,039
You will meet a stranger
297
00:20:01,859 --> 00:20:05,252
I was born in the Bronx, 1933.
298
00:20:05,347 --> 00:20:09,263
My father's from Hungary,
my mother Romania, Jewish immigrants.
299
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,815
It was a matter of chance
they arrived in the US as children
300
00:20:11,911 --> 00:20:15,139
and managed to raise a family
in New York instead of being swept up
301
00:20:15,235 --> 00:20:17,473
into the extermination camps
and murdered by the Nazis,
302
00:20:17,569 --> 00:20:20,992
like millions of others like them
in Eastern Europe.
303
00:20:21,572 --> 00:20:24,855
That's really what's behind
the obedience experiments.
304
00:20:24,951 --> 00:20:27,456
The inkling I was chasing,
305
00:20:27,685 --> 00:20:30,176
the thing that troubled me.
306
00:20:32,517 --> 00:20:38,026
How do civilized human beings
participate in destructive, inhumane acts?
307
00:20:38,122 --> 00:20:42,157
How was genocide implemented
so systematically, so efficiently?
308
00:20:42,253 --> 00:20:46,573
And how did the perpetrators of these
murders live with themselves?
309
00:20:58,886 --> 00:21:00,974
My daughter, Michele,
310
00:21:01,070 --> 00:21:04,359
a precocious child who at this point
in the story hasn't yet been born,
311
00:21:04,455 --> 00:21:07,272
used to tell the kids at school:
"My dad's a psychologist,
312
00:21:07,368 --> 00:21:09,896
but not the kind who talks
to people lying down.
313
00:21:09,992 --> 00:21:12,739
He's an experimental psychologist.
314
00:21:13,447 --> 00:21:15,779
He does experiments."
315
00:21:19,943 --> 00:21:24,324
First let's determine which of you will be
"learner" and which will be "teacher."
316
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,281
"Teacher."
317
00:21:30,376 --> 00:21:33,385
They both say that.
And no one's caught on?
318
00:21:33,481 --> 00:21:35,530
- Not a soul.
- Not the corporate manager,
319
00:21:35,626 --> 00:21:38,137
the banker, the plumber,
the Good Humor man.
320
00:21:38,233 --> 00:21:40,618
The Good Humor man was actually vicious.
321
00:21:40,713 --> 00:21:43,594
Crude mesomorph of obviously
limited intelligence.
322
00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:46,953
The script has kind of momentum.
It carries them along.
323
00:21:47,049 --> 00:21:48,961
- Men only?
- Every hour.
324
00:21:49,057 --> 00:21:51,722
It's getting to be a blur, really.
325
00:21:51,818 --> 00:21:56,081
So you lead them both, both
the teacher and the learner, into...
326
00:21:56,177 --> 00:21:59,173
the... electric chair?
327
00:21:59,754 --> 00:22:02,797
Well, we don't call it that, but, yes,
328
00:22:02,893 --> 00:22:05,494
if you'll follow me
into the next room, please?
329
00:22:10,378 --> 00:22:11,691
Here's my home.
330
00:22:11,787 --> 00:22:14,826
I think I'd go nuts
in this little room all day.
331
00:22:14,922 --> 00:22:17,420
Well, they keep me busy.
332
00:22:17,995 --> 00:22:20,267
- Actually, I have a heart condition.
- Really?
333
00:22:20,363 --> 00:22:23,147
It does give you authenticity,
I think, in the part.
334
00:22:23,243 --> 00:22:26,188
But I think I'm a better actor
than I am accountant.
335
00:22:26,284 --> 00:22:28,523
It's nearly time for the next one.
336
00:22:29,003 --> 00:22:31,308
Is somebody in there?
337
00:22:31,404 --> 00:22:33,356
Maybe Alan.
338
00:22:33,452 --> 00:22:36,071
- Shall we join him?
- Sure.
339
00:22:38,475 --> 00:22:41,872
To give you, the teacher, an idea of how
much shock the learner will be receiving,
340
00:22:41,968 --> 00:22:45,580
we think it's only fair you receive
a sample shock yourself. Is that all right?
341
00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:47,629
- Fair enough.
- Give me your right arm.
342
00:22:47,725 --> 00:22:50,567
This is the only real shock, right?
343
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:53,036
Have you done it?
344
00:22:53,132 --> 00:22:54,925
Been shocked like that, literally?
345
00:22:55,021 --> 00:22:57,736
- Yeah.
- It's not pleasant.
346
00:23:00,333 --> 00:23:03,278
Now if you'll just use the scale here
to estimate for me the amount of volts
347
00:23:03,374 --> 00:23:06,168
you think you've received
in the sample shock.
348
00:23:08,013 --> 00:23:11,309
- I don't know. You tell me.
- That was only 45 volts.
349
00:23:11,405 --> 00:23:13,197
So go ahead and begin the test.
350
00:23:13,293 --> 00:23:15,502
He doesn't have a microphone
but he can hear you.
351
00:23:15,598 --> 00:23:20,174
Just speak into the microphone.
The rooms are partially soundproof.
352
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:22,122
Are you ready, learner?
353
00:23:23,373 --> 00:23:26,190
Continues with robotic impassivity,
354
00:23:26,286 --> 00:23:28,462
oblivious to experimenter.
355
00:23:28,558 --> 00:23:31,966
Seems to derive no pleasure
from the act itself.
356
00:23:32,062 --> 00:23:34,073
Incorrect.
357
00:23:34,990 --> 00:23:36,687
The correct answer is box.
358
00:23:36,783 --> 00:23:39,331
Curt and officious
when saying "Correct".
359
00:23:39,427 --> 00:23:41,936
75 volts.
360
00:23:42,595 --> 00:23:44,112
Let me out of here!
361
00:23:44,208 --> 00:23:47,119
Each time he administrates a shock,
362
00:23:47,215 --> 00:23:50,122
lips drawn back, bares his teeth.
363
00:23:51,887 --> 00:23:56,043
"Sweet: Candy, girl, taste, pickle."
364
00:23:57,072 --> 00:24:01,258
Wrong. "Sweet taste." 120 volts.
365
00:24:02,609 --> 00:24:04,980
Let me out of here!
366
00:24:06,576 --> 00:24:11,552
Looks sadly at the experimenter
and continues reading word pairs.
367
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,777
Wrong. "True story".
368
00:24:17,873 --> 00:24:19,884
135 volts.
369
00:24:21,969 --> 00:24:23,313
"Slow, walk..."
370
00:24:23,409 --> 00:24:26,513
Afterwards, if a learner
who says he agreed to it
371
00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:28,849
and therefore must accept
responsibility.
372
00:24:28,945 --> 00:24:33,772
Wrong. "Slow music." 150 volts.
373
00:24:34,085 --> 00:24:37,954
Let me out of here!
I can't stand the pain.
374
00:24:39,409 --> 00:24:42,221
The man, he seems to be getting hurt.
375
00:24:42,449 --> 00:24:45,010
There's no permanent tissue damage.
376
00:24:45,106 --> 00:24:49,362
Yes, but I know what shocks do to you.
I'm an electrical engineer,
377
00:24:49,458 --> 00:24:51,886
and I have had shocks.
378
00:24:52,242 --> 00:24:54,706
You get real shook up by them,
379
00:24:54,802 --> 00:24:57,779
especially if you know
the next one is coming.
380
00:24:58,610 --> 00:25:00,466
I'm sorry.
381
00:25:00,562 --> 00:25:02,355
It's absolutely essential
that you do continue.
382
00:25:02,451 --> 00:25:04,211
Well, I won't!
383
00:25:04,307 --> 00:25:07,315
Not with the man screaming to get out.
384
00:25:07,411 --> 00:25:09,898
You have no other choice.
385
00:25:13,331 --> 00:25:16,047
Why don't I have a choice?
386
00:25:16,787 --> 00:25:19,156
I came here on my own free will.
387
00:25:19,251 --> 00:25:21,333
I thought I could help
in a research project.
388
00:25:21,620 --> 00:25:24,243
But if I have to hurt somebody,
389
00:25:24,338 --> 00:25:27,036
if I was in his place,
390
00:25:27,796 --> 00:25:29,936
no, I can't continue.
391
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:36,080
I've probably gone too far already.
I'm very sorry.
392
00:25:44,180 --> 00:25:46,261
I could've wept.
393
00:25:46,357 --> 00:25:49,360
I mean he looked like
he wanted to slug me.
394
00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:52,590
Out of gratitude, you do understand,
I mean wept. Because...
395
00:25:52,686 --> 00:25:56,465
all day we've been getting
nothing but "wrong...
396
00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:01,782
You do realize I have to sit
and listen to you scream all day.
397
00:26:01,878 --> 00:26:04,246
Well, so do I.
398
00:26:04,758 --> 00:26:08,759
- He was what, Danish?
- Dutch, actually.
399
00:26:08,855 --> 00:26:12,187
Right, but it wasn't his nationality
that caused him to stop,
400
00:26:12,283 --> 00:26:14,994
it was the fact he worked
with electricity.
401
00:26:15,735 --> 00:26:18,807
They all seem to wanna impress you...
402
00:26:18,903 --> 00:26:21,043
for some reason.
403
00:26:21,846 --> 00:26:23,799
But why?
404
00:26:24,279 --> 00:26:26,775
Why do so many, the vast majority,
405
00:26:26,871 --> 00:26:28,920
push all the way through
to the final switch?
406
00:26:29,016 --> 00:26:33,752
Why is the Dutchman's defiance
the anomaly instead of the norm?
407
00:26:34,066 --> 00:26:36,232
All the psychiatrists
and psychologists I consulted
408
00:26:36,328 --> 00:26:39,066
were convinced that we'd have trouble
finding a single person
409
00:26:39,162 --> 00:26:40,926
that'd go all the way
through to the end.
410
00:26:41,262 --> 00:26:43,993
I'd have been better off consulting
the guy from Pepe's Pizza.
411
00:26:44,089 --> 00:26:47,321
- Oh, you mean Pepe?
- I think his name is Carmine.
412
00:26:47,417 --> 00:26:51,992
Well, you get my point. The butcher,
the baker, the candlestick maker.
413
00:26:52,088 --> 00:26:54,589
I'd like to try it...
414
00:26:54,685 --> 00:26:56,889
the test shock.
415
00:26:56,985 --> 00:26:59,592
I just wanna... know what it feels like.
416
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:01,882
Sasha.
417
00:27:02,169 --> 00:27:04,757
I don't even think about that, and...
418
00:27:04,853 --> 00:27:09,031
I've been in there supposedly
getting zapped to the maximum.
419
00:27:13,017 --> 00:27:14,874
This really isn't necessary.
420
00:27:14,970 --> 00:27:19,925
Well, yeah, but it's not harmful either.
I just wanna understand it better.
421
00:27:20,761 --> 00:27:22,294
Okay.
422
00:27:25,849 --> 00:27:27,890
Other arm.
423
00:27:41,562 --> 00:27:44,374
- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
424
00:27:50,235 --> 00:27:53,100
I designed a series
of variations, 25 in all,
425
00:27:53,196 --> 00:27:56,759
and continued the experiments
over the next two semesters.
426
00:27:57,658 --> 00:28:02,359
We adjust the script so that the learner
bangs on the wall, but says nothing.
427
00:28:04,859 --> 00:28:08,892
We asked the teacher to physically press
the learner's hand on a copper plate,
428
00:28:08,988 --> 00:28:11,206
- forcing him to receive the shock.
- House.
429
00:28:11,302 --> 00:28:13,943
Wrong. 135 volts.
430
00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:16,773
We moved the experiment
into a shabby office in Bridgeport,
431
00:28:16,869 --> 00:28:21,104
to deduct the potential intimidation factor
of Ivy League prestige.
432
00:28:21,872 --> 00:28:25,046
And, back at Yale, we include women.
433
00:28:26,701 --> 00:28:28,936
What did you just do?
434
00:28:29,789 --> 00:28:31,614
He said: "Ow."
435
00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:34,230
Did you turn off the machine?
436
00:28:35,549 --> 00:28:39,736
I... I thought
that if it seemed like I...
437
00:28:40,093 --> 00:28:42,330
you know, turn...
438
00:28:49,853 --> 00:28:53,722
- Okay. "Short..."
- The machine?
439
00:28:57,678 --> 00:28:59,978
Please continue, teacher.
440
00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:06,176
Okay, "Short: Sentence, movie,
441
00:29:06,272 --> 00:29:09,217
time, skirt."
442
00:29:12,895 --> 00:29:16,155
I'm sorry, that's wrong.
It's "short time".
443
00:29:25,568 --> 00:29:28,833
In nearly every case,
the essential results are the same.
444
00:29:28,929 --> 00:29:31,745
They hesitate, sigh, tremble and groan,
445
00:29:31,841 --> 00:29:37,249
but they advance to the last switch,
450 volts, "Danger Severe Shock XXX",
446
00:29:37,345 --> 00:29:39,995
because they're politely told to.
447
00:29:41,632 --> 00:29:44,482
The results are terrifying
and depressing.
448
00:29:44,578 --> 00:29:47,913
They suggest that the kind of character
produced in American society
449
00:29:48,009 --> 00:29:52,206
can't be counted on to insulate
its citizens from brutality
450
00:29:52,302 --> 00:29:56,637
and inhumane treatment in response
to a malevolent authority.
451
00:29:58,513 --> 00:29:59,771
Milgram?
452
00:30:00,250 --> 00:30:02,965
Milgram is Hebrew for pomegranate.
Is that what you mean?
453
00:30:03,061 --> 00:30:07,044
- It's one of the seven fruits of the Bible.
- You're Jewish, same as me.
454
00:30:07,649 --> 00:30:09,603
You seem upset. Am I upsetting you?
455
00:30:09,699 --> 00:30:12,610
I have office hours.
You can make an appointment. Yeah?
456
00:30:12,706 --> 00:30:14,866
You don't like surprises.
457
00:30:14,962 --> 00:30:17,091
You know, I've been thinking
about the experiment a lot.
458
00:30:17,187 --> 00:30:20,260
It really rattled my wife
about what it said about me.
459
00:30:20,355 --> 00:30:23,971
If she was me, she liked to think
she wouldn't have pulled the switch.
460
00:30:24,067 --> 00:30:26,754
- But you know what?
- What?
461
00:30:26,850 --> 00:30:29,699
You never know. That's the thing,
how can you know. You can't, right?
462
00:30:29,795 --> 00:30:32,777
No, you can't.
Look, if it's any consolation,
463
00:30:32,873 --> 00:30:36,532
a great many participants were prone
to nervous laughter, but my wife actually
464
00:30:36,628 --> 00:30:39,304
is waiting for me at home
for dinner, so...
465
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,491
- Are you inviting me?
- No.
466
00:30:42,923 --> 00:30:44,943
Make an appointment.
467
00:30:48,163 --> 00:30:50,952
With leftover grant money we film
the last two days of the experiment,
468
00:30:51,048 --> 00:30:54,308
May 26 and 27th, 1962.
469
00:30:54,404 --> 00:30:58,368
Four days later, Adolf Eichmann
is executed in Jerusalem.
470
00:31:01,194 --> 00:31:03,558
Eichmann... architect of the Holocaust,
471
00:31:03,654 --> 00:31:07,142
responsible for the deportation
and murder of millions of Jews,
472
00:31:07,238 --> 00:31:10,497
escaped to Argentina after World War II.
473
00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:15,334
He was living with his family
under the name Ricardo Klement,
474
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:17,670
an employee of Mercedes-Benz,
475
00:31:17,766 --> 00:31:22,023
when Israeli Mossad agents captured him
in 1960 and brought him to trial.
476
00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:24,614
...completed the translations,
477
00:31:24,710 --> 00:31:30,343
I beg to submit a translation
into the German of our number, 887.
478
00:31:30,439 --> 00:31:33,174
Eichmann didn't deny his crimes,
479
00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:35,698
showed no trace of guilt or remorse.
480
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:38,631
Said he was merely a transmitter.
481
00:31:38,727 --> 00:31:42,895
"I never did anything great or small
without express instructions
482
00:31:42,991 --> 00:31:45,314
from my superiors."
483
00:31:50,822 --> 00:31:54,792
The cradle rocks above an abyss
and common sense tells us
484
00:31:54,888 --> 00:31:57,860
that our existence
is but a brief crack of light
485
00:31:57,956 --> 00:32:01,379
between two eternities of darkness.
486
00:32:08,007 --> 00:32:10,537
Let me out of here!
Hey, that really hurts!
487
00:32:10,632 --> 00:32:12,489
I told you, I have a heart condition!
488
00:32:12,585 --> 00:32:15,560
I will not be
in this experiment anymore!
489
00:32:15,656 --> 00:32:19,210
Hey, let me out.
Let me outta here! Let me out!
490
00:32:19,305 --> 00:32:23,368
Let me out of here.
491
00:32:23,464 --> 00:32:28,260
I will no longer be here
492
00:32:31,144 --> 00:32:35,383
Hey, Stanley, a nice day to wrap up
the new obedience experiment.
493
00:32:35,479 --> 00:32:37,796
Yeah, yeah.
494
00:32:42,217 --> 00:32:44,266
I should tell you about Asch.
495
00:32:44,362 --> 00:32:46,054
Solomon E. Asch.
496
00:32:46,150 --> 00:32:48,911
If you ever saw my thesis at Harvard,
and I worked for him,
497
00:32:49,102 --> 00:32:53,571
diligently and miserably, at the Institute
for Advanced Study at Princeton.
498
00:32:55,210 --> 00:32:58,966
- Asch did the things with the lines, right?
- About a dozen years ago.
499
00:32:59,062 --> 00:33:01,456
The study you are taking part in today
500
00:33:01,552 --> 00:33:05,403
involves the perception
of the lengths of lines.
501
00:33:05,499 --> 00:33:08,556
As you can see,
there are a number of cards,
502
00:33:08,652 --> 00:33:12,139
and on each card
there are several lines.
503
00:33:12,235 --> 00:33:14,316
Your task is a very simple one.
504
00:33:14,412 --> 00:33:16,316
You're to look at the line on the left
505
00:33:16,412 --> 00:33:21,574
and determine which of the three lines
on the right is equal to it in length.
506
00:33:22,668 --> 00:33:25,549
This is a recreation
from a film I made in the 70's.
507
00:33:25,645 --> 00:33:28,140
Five of the six participants
are confederates.
508
00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:31,372
The single true subject
in the white T-shirt
509
00:33:31,468 --> 00:33:34,189
hears everyone else's answers
before announcing his decision.
510
00:33:35,244 --> 00:33:37,037
- Two.
- Two.
511
00:33:37,133 --> 00:33:38,925
- Two.
- Two.
512
00:33:39,021 --> 00:33:39,981
Two.
513
00:33:40,077 --> 00:33:42,353
Very good.
Let's move onto the next card.
514
00:33:42,449 --> 00:33:45,165
- Same thing, gentlemen.
- Three.
515
00:33:45,309 --> 00:33:46,538
Three.
516
00:33:46,634 --> 00:33:48,782
- Three.
- Three.
517
00:33:48,878 --> 00:33:52,878
After the first few rounds, members
of the group choose the wrong line.
518
00:33:52,974 --> 00:33:55,469
- Two.
- Two.
519
00:33:55,565 --> 00:33:58,414
The subject denies the evidence
of his own eyes
520
00:33:58,510 --> 00:34:01,295
- and yields to group influence.
- Two.
521
00:34:02,350 --> 00:34:04,298
Very good. Thank you.
522
00:34:04,621 --> 00:34:06,030
In the language of social science,
523
00:34:06,126 --> 00:34:09,422
the experiment was known as the effect
of group pressure upon the modification
524
00:34:09,518 --> 00:34:11,962
and distortion of judgments.
525
00:34:12,058 --> 00:34:15,210
- Great title.
- It made Asch famous.
526
00:34:15,982 --> 00:34:18,410
Amongst social scientists.
527
00:34:29,838 --> 00:34:32,720
It always bothered me
that the experiment was about lines.
528
00:34:32,815 --> 00:34:35,883
I wanted to do something
more humanly significant.
529
00:34:41,072 --> 00:34:43,056
He hears the bell.
530
00:34:43,152 --> 00:34:46,128
- Stanley, it's so good to see you.
- So good to see you.
531
00:34:46,223 --> 00:34:48,272
- Hi. Nice to meet you.
- This is Sasha.
532
00:34:48,368 --> 00:34:51,664
Sasha, how are you?
So lovely to see you. Come in.
533
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,604
- Stanley Glad you made it.
- How are you?
534
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,209
Can I tell you what a miserable time
I had working for Asch?
535
00:35:00,305 --> 00:35:04,082
Princeton, the bureaucracy,
the institutional arrogance.
536
00:35:04,178 --> 00:35:06,548
Not permitted to use a scrap of paper
537
00:35:06,643 --> 00:35:10,861
without it becoming an issue
to be settled behind closed doors.
538
00:35:12,369 --> 00:35:16,146
A candy bar in the office
and I was reported via formal letter.
539
00:35:16,242 --> 00:35:19,411
I assumed he'd introduce me
to the leading intellectuals of the day.
540
00:35:19,507 --> 00:35:22,481
This did not happen.
I assumed that he'd acknowledge me
541
00:35:22,577 --> 00:35:26,295
in the book I was researching for him,
a book on conformity.
542
00:35:27,634 --> 00:35:29,651
He did not finish the book.
543
00:35:29,747 --> 00:35:32,307
It was like drinking from a glass
with a false bottom.
544
00:35:32,403 --> 00:35:34,803
I thought there'd be more.
I was thirsty.
545
00:35:34,899 --> 00:35:37,396
Please call me Sholem,
I would prefer it.
546
00:35:37,492 --> 00:35:39,875
There's no need to be so stuffy.
547
00:35:39,971 --> 00:35:42,866
In an elevator? Really?
548
00:35:42,962 --> 00:35:44,852
They met in an elevator.
549
00:35:44,948 --> 00:35:47,950
Can someone please pacify the dog?
550
00:35:48,339 --> 00:35:51,091
Here I am, still trying to impress him.
551
00:35:51,187 --> 00:35:55,476
Human nature can be studied
but not escaped, especially your own.
552
00:35:55,572 --> 00:35:57,876
Well, I was on my way into this party
553
00:35:57,972 --> 00:36:01,463
and I could feel somebody walking
behind me as I went into the building.
554
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:03,093
And we both got onto the elevator,
555
00:36:03,188 --> 00:36:05,333
and it turned out we were going
to the same floor.
556
00:36:05,525 --> 00:36:07,861
And one of us said,
I don't remember which,
557
00:36:07,957 --> 00:36:11,509
- "Are we going to the same party?"
- My fate was sealed.
558
00:36:11,604 --> 00:36:14,165
He didn't leave my side the whole night.
559
00:36:14,261 --> 00:36:16,149
And he drove me home,
560
00:36:16,245 --> 00:36:18,741
and it turned out
we had a lot in common.
561
00:36:18,837 --> 00:36:21,682
We were both from the Bronx,
my mother was born in Russia.
562
00:36:21,778 --> 00:36:25,756
So my sister's friend, her parents
in Vienna had sent her and her brothers
563
00:36:25,852 --> 00:36:27,733
to New York during the war.
564
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:31,349
But when I was over there visiting,
they had just reclaimed their factory,
565
00:36:31,445 --> 00:36:34,902
and it was a coat factory,
and that's where I got this.
566
00:36:34,998 --> 00:36:37,846
So, you're a well-traveled
American girl,
567
00:36:37,942 --> 00:36:39,830
born in Switzerland,
568
00:36:39,926 --> 00:36:44,273
who took dance lessons in Paris
and is wearing a Viennese coat?
569
00:36:46,038 --> 00:36:47,703
Why haven't we met before?
570
00:36:47,799 --> 00:36:50,707
Stanley, why do you feel compelled
571
00:36:50,802 --> 00:36:54,487
to dwell on the negative aspects
of obedience?
572
00:36:54,583 --> 00:36:57,591
Why must you focus
on its destructive potential?
573
00:36:57,687 --> 00:37:00,711
Obedience isn't necessarily
an instrument of evil.
574
00:37:00,807 --> 00:37:03,463
I think we can both agree,
looking at recent history,
575
00:37:03,607 --> 00:37:07,513
the history that brought you
to this country, a history in which we see
576
00:37:07,609 --> 00:37:11,735
abusive power assuming
unprecedented murderous dimensions.
577
00:37:11,831 --> 00:37:15,538
Why does your experiment
give me a dirty feeling?
578
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:18,168
He didn't expect these results.
579
00:37:18,264 --> 00:37:23,152
He tried to change the conditions
so that people would refuse to obey.
580
00:37:24,153 --> 00:37:28,456
We met in a library. Oh, him, not him.
581
00:37:28,552 --> 00:37:31,760
The whole time, I'm sorry,
this is startling,
582
00:37:31,856 --> 00:37:34,003
out of 780 subjects,
583
00:37:34,099 --> 00:37:37,333
not a single person got up,
went to the door
584
00:37:37,429 --> 00:37:40,244
and looked in to see if the man
screaming was all right.
585
00:37:41,081 --> 00:37:43,860
Not a single one.
586
00:37:47,929 --> 00:37:52,488
Sasha goes back to school, Smith College,
for her degree in social work.
587
00:37:53,656 --> 00:37:56,474
My first obedience paper
submitted almost two years ago
588
00:37:56,570 --> 00:37:58,874
to the Journal of Abnormal
and Social Psychology
589
00:37:58,970 --> 00:38:01,882
is finally published in October 1963,
590
00:38:02,362 --> 00:38:04,346
just after I start a new job at Harvard,
591
00:38:04,442 --> 00:38:08,025
Assistant Professor,
Department of Social Relations.
592
00:38:08,218 --> 00:38:11,002
Am I impressed with myself
being at Harvard?
593
00:38:11,098 --> 00:38:16,246
Well, I got my PhD here,
Harvard is the best place to be.
594
00:38:16,858 --> 00:38:20,251
The subjects were seen to swear,
tremble, stutter,
595
00:38:20,347 --> 00:38:24,251
bite their lips, dig
their fingernails into the flesh,
596
00:38:24,347 --> 00:38:27,868
and these were characteristic
responses, not exceptions,
597
00:38:27,964 --> 00:38:30,585
and yet, despite this behavior,
598
00:38:30,681 --> 00:38:33,035
the majority complied.
599
00:38:33,819 --> 00:38:35,356
Yes?
600
00:38:35,451 --> 00:38:38,263
How do you justify the deception?
601
00:38:39,163 --> 00:38:41,884
I like to think of it as illusion,
not deception.
602
00:38:41,980 --> 00:38:44,445
Semantics, you may say,
but illusion, you know,
603
00:38:44,541 --> 00:38:46,972
has a revelatory function, as in a play.
604
00:38:47,068 --> 00:38:49,244
Illusion can set the stage
for revelation,
605
00:38:49,340 --> 00:38:51,805
to reveal certain
difficult-to-get-at truths.
606
00:38:51,901 --> 00:38:54,749
But still, when you go to see a play,
you pay for a ticket.
607
00:38:54,845 --> 00:38:56,477
You know you're seeing a play.
608
00:38:56,860 --> 00:38:59,672
These people didn't know it wasn't real.
609
00:39:00,140 --> 00:39:01,885
You tricked them.
610
00:39:01,981 --> 00:39:04,170
Hello, today
we'll be doing an experiment
611
00:39:04,266 --> 00:39:06,877
about blind obedience
to malevolent authority.
612
00:39:06,973 --> 00:39:08,939
I'd like for you to pretend
that this machine
613
00:39:09,035 --> 00:39:12,093
is delivering painful shocks
to a person in the other room.
614
00:39:12,189 --> 00:39:16,036
- How truthful do you think that would be?
- But if you think of it, really...
615
00:39:16,132 --> 00:39:19,367
you were delivering shocks
to your subjects.
616
00:39:19,463 --> 00:39:22,134
Psychological shocks.
And the anxieties...
617
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:24,334
- No.
- ...methodically, for one year.
618
00:39:24,430 --> 00:39:26,815
If your facts were as solid
as your imagination,
619
00:39:26,910 --> 00:39:30,077
you'd realize that this
is a false analogy.
620
00:39:30,173 --> 00:39:32,360
As Kierkegaard says,
621
00:39:32,456 --> 00:39:35,566
"Take away paradox from the thinker
and you have a professor."
622
00:39:35,662 --> 00:39:36,927
An assistant professor.
623
00:39:37,023 --> 00:39:41,631
For the moment, Dr. Milgram and myself
are only assistant professors, it's true.
624
00:39:42,015 --> 00:39:44,894
The gentleman in the elevator now...
625
00:39:44,990 --> 00:39:47,539
is a Candid star.
These folks who are entering,
626
00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:50,816
the man with the white shirt,
the lady with the trench coat,
627
00:39:50,912 --> 00:39:54,144
and, subsequently,
one other member of our staff,
628
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:56,512
will face the rear.
629
00:39:56,608 --> 00:39:58,331
And you'll see...
630
00:39:58,427 --> 00:40:01,454
how this man in the trench coat...
631
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,035
tries to maintain his individuality,
632
00:40:11,328 --> 00:40:14,146
but, little by little...
633
00:40:19,456 --> 00:40:22,530
he looks at his watch
but he's really making an excuse
634
00:40:22,626 --> 00:40:25,825
for turning just a little bit
more to the wall."
635
00:40:25,921 --> 00:40:30,561
Actually, it's true. There's an element
of illusion in almost all my work.
636
00:40:30,657 --> 00:40:35,132
This man has apparently
been in groups before.
637
00:40:44,289 --> 00:40:46,915
Candid Camera was a reference point,
I never denied that.
638
00:40:47,011 --> 00:40:49,379
You can see that plainly enough
in the lost letter technique,
639
00:40:49,475 --> 00:40:52,630
which I conceived of at Yale
and was refined at Harvard.
640
00:40:52,726 --> 00:40:57,091
Leave a letter, a sealed, stamped letter
but unmailed, for someone else to find.
641
00:40:57,474 --> 00:40:59,972
Leave it on a sidewalk,
inside a store, a phone booth.
642
00:41:00,068 --> 00:41:02,771
Put it under the windshield wipers
of a parked car with a note saying,
643
00:41:02,867 --> 00:41:04,964
"Found near car."
644
00:41:05,060 --> 00:41:08,387
All letters are addressed
to the same post office box.
645
00:41:08,483 --> 00:41:12,260
But they're evenly split between
four different intended recipients.
646
00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:15,380
Friends of the Communist Party,
friends of the Nazi Party,
647
00:41:15,475 --> 00:41:19,150
Medical Research Associates,
and Mr. Walter Carnap.
648
00:41:19,524 --> 00:41:21,668
All fictitious.
649
00:41:22,052 --> 00:41:23,653
The innocuous content of the letters,
650
00:41:23,749 --> 00:41:26,052
if anyone's curious enough
to open and read,
651
00:41:26,148 --> 00:41:28,549
was a simple message
from "Max" to "Walter"
652
00:41:28,645 --> 00:41:31,072
proposing an upcoming meeting.
653
00:41:33,892 --> 00:41:35,877
Carnap.
654
00:41:35,973 --> 00:41:38,478
It's kind of an odd name.
655
00:41:38,574 --> 00:41:40,896
Like the philosopher?
656
00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:48,037
In two weeks, out of 100 "lost" letters
to each addressee,
657
00:41:48,133 --> 00:41:50,886
72 were sent to the Medical
Research Associates,
658
00:41:50,982 --> 00:41:53,877
plus 71% to Mr. Walter Carnap,
659
00:41:53,973 --> 00:41:56,838
but a mere 25 to the Friends
of the Communists,
660
00:41:56,934 --> 00:42:00,133
and the same number, 25, to the Nazis.
661
00:42:00,229 --> 00:42:01,514
We can deduce from this
662
00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:04,262
that the American public has an aversion
to Nazis and Communists.
663
00:42:04,358 --> 00:42:06,167
Results that are reasonable
664
00:42:06,263 --> 00:42:09,831
and even comforting,
though not startling.
665
00:42:09,927 --> 00:42:11,459
But why not take it further?
666
00:42:11,555 --> 00:42:14,298
Taketo Murata, another student,
drives to Charlotte
667
00:42:14,394 --> 00:42:18,178
and Raleigh, North Carolina,
to lose a new batch of letters.
668
00:42:29,575 --> 00:42:34,407
When the letters come back, the percentages,
once again confirm expected prejudices.
669
00:42:34,503 --> 00:42:37,993
Pro-white letters get mailed
more often in white neighborhoods.
670
00:42:38,088 --> 00:42:42,531
More pro-negro letters get mailed
from black neighborhoods.
671
00:42:44,136 --> 00:42:48,108
A variation.
I hire a pilot with a Piper Cub
672
00:42:48,204 --> 00:42:52,489
to fly low over Worcester, Massachusetts,
spilling lost letters.
673
00:42:52,585 --> 00:42:55,305
They land in trees, ponds, on rooftops.
674
00:42:55,785 --> 00:42:58,053
Not all my ideas are brilliant.
675
00:43:10,345 --> 00:43:15,027
Well, it's not on the front page,
strangely enough.
676
00:43:25,801 --> 00:43:28,134
I found it. Page Ten.
677
00:43:30,314 --> 00:43:31,980
Okay.
678
00:43:32,747 --> 00:43:37,420
"Yale experiment shows many distraught
over cruelty but did not stop."
679
00:43:37,516 --> 00:43:41,963
It's odd to see one's name in the paper,
but maybe I can get used to it.
680
00:43:42,059 --> 00:43:45,996
"Subjects have been studied under
24 different experimental conditions."
681
00:43:46,092 --> 00:43:48,747
It wasn't a thousand, was it?
682
00:43:48,843 --> 00:43:51,852
I talked to him for over half an hour
and I don't see a single direct quote.
683
00:43:51,948 --> 00:43:56,172
"Dr. Milgram pointed out
that from 1933 to 1945,
684
00:43:56,268 --> 00:44:01,851
millions of persons were systematically
slaughtered on command.
685
00:44:01,947 --> 00:44:04,941
Gas chambers were built,
death camps were guarded,
686
00:44:05,037 --> 00:44:08,621
corpses were produced
with the same efficiency
687
00:44:08,717 --> 00:44:11,853
as the manufacture of appliances."
688
00:44:11,949 --> 00:44:14,280
There's a quote.
689
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:18,344
Do you think anyone else
reads this paper?
690
00:44:32,045 --> 00:44:36,611
President Kennedy has been shot.
He was shot in the motorcade in Dallas.
691
00:44:37,741 --> 00:44:40,045
He was shot in the head.
692
00:44:40,141 --> 00:44:42,574
It's Milgram. It's just another one
of his experiments.
693
00:44:42,670 --> 00:44:44,142
- On the level?
- Yes.
694
00:44:44,238 --> 00:44:47,241
Kelly, you've got that radio, yeah?
Turn it on.
695
00:44:48,334 --> 00:44:51,151
...during his tour of the City
of Dallas, Texas.
696
00:44:51,438 --> 00:44:54,171
A presidential aide, Mario Bryan,
said he had no information
697
00:44:54,267 --> 00:44:56,334
on whether the President is alive..."
698
00:44:56,430 --> 00:44:59,342
He's rigged a faked broadcast,
like Orson Welles.
699
00:44:59,438 --> 00:45:01,615
I wonder what the experiment's
really about?
700
00:45:01,807 --> 00:45:04,847
- This is real.
- ...the president is critical.
701
00:45:04,943 --> 00:45:07,215
Texas Governor John Connally
also was shot
702
00:45:07,311 --> 00:45:09,515
and has been taken to surgery
in Parkland Hospital...
703
00:45:37,455 --> 00:45:40,529
I got it cheap, I got it cheap
from a grad student.
704
00:45:40,721 --> 00:45:43,665
He gave me a deal when he realized
he couldn't take it with him to London.
705
00:45:43,761 --> 00:45:47,212
It's making a funny noise.
Maybe you can have a look.
706
00:45:48,176 --> 00:45:50,210
- Stanley, the dean...
- You love this kind of thing.
707
00:45:50,306 --> 00:45:54,130
...lives right across the street.
We just applied for financial aid.
708
00:45:54,226 --> 00:45:56,274
A Jaguar, right.
What's he going to think?
709
00:45:56,370 --> 00:46:00,146
- What... who cares what he thinks?
- I didn't say that.
710
00:46:00,242 --> 00:46:03,053
- Well...
- I didn't say that.
711
00:46:04,465 --> 00:46:06,099
Yeah.
712
00:46:06,194 --> 00:46:08,063
See you soon.
713
00:46:15,378 --> 00:46:18,547
It was cheaper than you think but
I understand it creates the wrong impression.
714
00:46:18,643 --> 00:46:19,603
- Do you?
- I do.
715
00:46:19,699 --> 00:46:24,723
Or are you just doing an imitation of
someone who listens, who's reasonable?
716
00:46:24,819 --> 00:46:27,443
Well, we're going to need two cars.
717
00:46:27,963 --> 00:46:30,255
Is that the dean?
718
00:46:31,986 --> 00:46:34,900
Well, maybe it'll impress
the Harvard tenure committee.
719
00:46:34,996 --> 00:46:37,101
Who cares what they think?
720
00:46:40,691 --> 00:46:43,759
- So you returned the car?
- I did.
721
00:46:43,891 --> 00:46:45,908
It was sensible.
722
00:46:46,004 --> 00:46:49,780
I don't know a single tenured professor
who drives a Jaguar.
723
00:46:49,876 --> 00:46:51,989
I didn't like the color.
724
00:46:52,085 --> 00:46:55,792
If you get turned down,
it won't be because of an automobile.
725
00:46:56,948 --> 00:46:58,965
But it's got to sting, yeah?
726
00:46:59,061 --> 00:47:02,741
The attacks, the criticisms,
the violent reactions.
727
00:47:02,837 --> 00:47:05,430
That woman was going through a divorce,
it turns out.
728
00:47:05,526 --> 00:47:07,857
I didn't take it personally.
729
00:47:09,013 --> 00:47:11,409
I'm going through a divorce.
730
00:47:12,116 --> 00:47:14,352
I don't spit at people.
731
00:47:17,749 --> 00:47:20,081
I'm sorry to hear that.
732
00:47:21,365 --> 00:47:23,121
Thank you.
733
00:47:35,701 --> 00:47:40,179
It's true that I am, possibly, more than
commonly on edge, but how would you feel...
734
00:47:40,275 --> 00:47:42,329
if you picked up a copy
of American Psychologist
735
00:47:42,425 --> 00:47:45,004
and found yourself attacked
in an article called
736
00:47:45,099 --> 00:47:47,384
"Some Thoughts on Ethics in Research:
737
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,846
a Response to Milgram's Behavioral
Study of Obedience"?
738
00:47:50,990 --> 00:47:52,872
Psychiatrists...
739
00:47:52,968 --> 00:47:57,048
many of you in this room, predicted
that only one person in a thousand
740
00:47:57,144 --> 00:48:02,329
would deliver the shocks across the board,
an estimate that was off by a factor of 500.
741
00:48:02,424 --> 00:48:04,900
So what happened in the lab...
742
00:48:04,996 --> 00:48:07,859
was discovered, not planned.
743
00:48:07,955 --> 00:48:12,248
But you expected, you knew you were
going to worry some people.
744
00:48:12,344 --> 00:48:14,397
Stress, in fact, was a part of it.
745
00:48:14,493 --> 00:48:16,601
- Well, every...
- Extreme stress.
746
00:48:16,697 --> 00:48:19,865
Every experiment is a situation
where the end is unknown,
747
00:48:19,961 --> 00:48:23,641
indeterminate,
something that might fail.
748
00:48:23,737 --> 00:48:26,522
The indeterminacy is part
of the excitement.
749
00:48:26,617 --> 00:48:28,825
Ethics. The undertow of ethics.
750
00:48:28,921 --> 00:48:32,931
I wanted to ask...
I wanted to ask a question,
751
00:48:33,027 --> 00:48:37,214
a series of questions about
the psychological function of obedience.
752
00:48:37,310 --> 00:48:41,609
The conditions that shape it,
the defense mechanisms it entails.
753
00:48:41,705 --> 00:48:45,658
The emotional forces
that keep a person obeying.
754
00:48:45,754 --> 00:48:48,474
As someone with pretensions
as a moral educator,
755
00:48:48,570 --> 00:48:52,635
let me suggest that science
must enhance our moral personhood,
756
00:48:52,731 --> 00:48:55,291
not... not diminish it.
757
00:48:55,579 --> 00:48:58,331
You forced people
to torture other people.
758
00:48:58,427 --> 00:49:00,987
- No. No. No.
- To see if they...
759
00:49:01,083 --> 00:49:03,985
No. That is alien to my view.
760
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,356
No one was forced, right?
761
00:49:07,452 --> 00:49:10,011
The experimenter told the subject
to perform an action.
762
00:49:10,107 --> 00:49:12,375
What happened between the command
763
00:49:12,471 --> 00:49:15,516
and the outcome is the individual.
764
00:49:15,612 --> 00:49:20,700
With conscience and a will,
who can either obey or disobey.
765
00:49:20,796 --> 00:49:26,870
I don't see how you can seriously equate
victimization in a laboratory con
766
00:49:26,966 --> 00:49:29,916
with the willful participation
in mass murder.
767
00:49:30,012 --> 00:49:32,792
Victimization? Look...
768
00:49:33,947 --> 00:49:36,317
When the experiments were complete...
769
00:49:36,989 --> 00:49:39,869
all the subjects were sent
this questionnaire.
770
00:49:39,965 --> 00:49:42,295
Here's some examples.
771
00:49:45,052 --> 00:49:48,638
84% said they were glad
to have been in the experiment.
772
00:49:48,734 --> 00:49:51,823
15% indicated neutral feelings.
773
00:49:51,919 --> 00:49:56,715
1.3% indicated negative feelings.
774
00:49:56,811 --> 00:49:58,878
1.3%.
775
00:49:58,974 --> 00:50:02,392
Four-fifths thought more experiments
of this sort should be carried out,
776
00:50:02,488 --> 00:50:07,641
and 74% said they had learned
something of personal importance
777
00:50:07,737 --> 00:50:12,858
about themselves and about the conditions
that shape human action.
778
00:50:15,933 --> 00:50:19,327
A year after the study,
a psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Errara,
779
00:50:19,423 --> 00:50:23,770
was hired to meet with subjects who
might've suffered possible negative effects.
780
00:50:24,255 --> 00:50:27,456
This is not another experiment.
There's no trick here.
781
00:50:27,552 --> 00:50:31,359
- I can see why you may have your doubts.
- Yes.
782
00:50:31,455 --> 00:50:35,968
This is a debriefing meeting.
We're here to assess the after-effects.
783
00:50:36,064 --> 00:50:37,623
So...
784
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,911
tell us how you feel.
785
00:50:40,095 --> 00:50:43,899
I'd like to know...
what the point is of it.
786
00:50:44,416 --> 00:50:46,624
To learn something about human nature.
787
00:50:46,720 --> 00:50:49,057
That was the aim.
788
00:50:49,152 --> 00:50:51,388
Professor Milgram?
789
00:50:52,255 --> 00:50:56,448
I hope that... I sincerely hope
that, basically,
790
00:50:56,544 --> 00:51:00,700
you don't have the feeling that would rather
not have been a part of this experiment.
791
00:51:02,784 --> 00:51:05,281
It's an interesting life experience.
792
00:51:05,377 --> 00:51:09,844
I don't like hurting anyone and I can't
understand myself going all the way.
793
00:51:10,849 --> 00:51:13,058
It left me feeling guilty.
794
00:51:13,154 --> 00:51:16,033
- Weren't we supposed to have coffee?
- Yeah.
795
00:51:16,129 --> 00:51:19,189
I told my husband.
I know I wasn't supposed to.
796
00:51:19,285 --> 00:51:22,018
But I don't do everything I'm told.
797
00:51:22,113 --> 00:51:26,205
He said he wouldn't have done
the shocks. He would have refused.
798
00:51:26,722 --> 00:51:29,705
I wanted to cry, but I started to laugh.
799
00:51:29,801 --> 00:51:31,688
I think I did both.
800
00:51:31,784 --> 00:51:35,587
Well, I was quite frightened,
and I was quivering, and it's...
801
00:51:35,683 --> 00:51:38,905
I actually tried to memorize
the word pairs myself
802
00:51:39,001 --> 00:51:41,987
so that if they switched it around
I wouldn't have to get those shocks.
803
00:51:42,083 --> 00:51:45,027
There's a tendency to think
that everything a person does
804
00:51:45,123 --> 00:51:49,379
is due to the feelings
or ideas within the person.
805
00:51:49,891 --> 00:51:51,843
You haven't had your coffee.
You want coffee?
806
00:51:51,939 --> 00:51:54,276
- Yes.
- Cream? Sugar?
807
00:51:54,371 --> 00:51:56,740
- I'll take two sugars.
- Both, please.
808
00:51:56,836 --> 00:51:58,916
Yes, thank you.
809
00:51:59,012 --> 00:52:03,140
But sometimes a person's
actions depend equally
810
00:52:03,236 --> 00:52:06,000
on the situation you find yourself in,
and in this case,
811
00:52:06,096 --> 00:52:10,244
the power of the situation
overwhelmed your personal power.
812
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:13,892
I'm an understanding person. Okay?
813
00:52:13,988 --> 00:52:16,220
I'm an intelligent human being.
814
00:52:16,316 --> 00:52:19,008
Speak the truth to me...
815
00:52:19,907 --> 00:52:22,822
and I'll cooperate gladly,
even if it's a bitter truth,
816
00:52:22,918 --> 00:52:25,824
but don't lie to me.
817
00:52:25,988 --> 00:52:27,845
The purpose was to...
818
00:52:27,941 --> 00:52:31,750
advance science, learn something.
819
00:52:31,846 --> 00:52:36,579
Maybe you shouldn't do this kind
of experiment if you have to deceive.
820
00:52:37,573 --> 00:52:41,061
Look, you can deceive other people
but don't deceive me.
821
00:52:44,005 --> 00:52:47,535
We had half a dozen sessions with Errara
and invited subjects.
822
00:52:47,631 --> 00:52:50,804
The meetings were sparsely attended,
full of confusion and complaints,
823
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:53,991
but we concluded that no one
showed signs of harm,
824
00:52:54,087 --> 00:52:56,071
no one had been traumatized.
825
00:52:56,454 --> 00:52:58,257
Stanley?
826
00:52:58,353 --> 00:53:00,446
Tom Shannon.
827
00:53:01,255 --> 00:53:03,047
Tom did the wiring
on the shock generator.
828
00:53:03,143 --> 00:53:05,479
- At Yale. The shock box.
- Nice to meet you.
829
00:53:05,575 --> 00:53:08,072
- This is Sasha.
- This is Michele.
830
00:53:08,168 --> 00:53:10,250
Hey, I hated hearing about
Jim McDonough.
831
00:53:10,346 --> 00:53:12,744
Dead at 49. That stuff
about his heart was no joke.
832
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:17,379
Yeah, I know. Sat down to a bowl
of oatmeal, had a heart attack.
833
00:53:20,807 --> 00:53:24,019
- He had nine kids.
- Oh, sad.
834
00:53:24,115 --> 00:53:27,912
Maybe you shouldn't unload such
a large brood into the world, no offense.
835
00:53:28,008 --> 00:53:31,432
She's taking us to Paris.
It's the first stamp on her passport.
836
00:53:31,528 --> 00:53:33,769
- That's awesome.
- Sasha thinks I need a vacation.
837
00:53:33,864 --> 00:53:37,021
Yeah. I heard they roughed you up
pretty good about those results.
838
00:53:37,117 --> 00:53:40,041
- He's up for tenure.
- People get feisty, but it'll work out.
839
00:53:40,137 --> 00:53:43,113
You gotta finish your book now.
Publish or perish, right?
840
00:53:43,209 --> 00:53:47,173
Actually, I got sidetracked
working on the small world problem.
841
00:53:48,504 --> 00:53:51,785
For the Small World Problem,
we asked people in Kansas and Omaha
842
00:53:51,881 --> 00:53:56,228
to mail a packet to a person
in Sharon, Massachusetts.
843
00:53:57,609 --> 00:54:00,037
The instructions are simple.
844
00:54:00,994 --> 00:54:02,347
There's a target person.
845
00:54:02,442 --> 00:54:05,642
In this case, a stockbroker
named Jacobs in Sharon, Mass.
846
00:54:05,738 --> 00:54:08,563
Assuming they don't know this person,
people are asked to mail the folder
847
00:54:08,659 --> 00:54:10,187
to someone who might know him.
848
00:54:10,283 --> 00:54:13,163
They can send it to a friend,
relative, or acquaintance,
849
00:54:13,259 --> 00:54:15,277
but they have to send it,
and this is key,
850
00:54:15,498 --> 00:54:18,031
to a person they know
on a first-name basis.
851
00:54:18,127 --> 00:54:21,939
There's a roster to fill out and a batch
of postcards to mail back to Harvard
852
00:54:22,035 --> 00:54:24,202
to track the process.
853
00:54:24,298 --> 00:54:26,174
Will it work? We don't know.
854
00:54:26,270 --> 00:54:29,403
A woman in Omaha sends the folder
to a high school friend, a bank clerk,
855
00:54:29,499 --> 00:54:30,955
in Council Bluffs, Iowa.
856
00:54:31,051 --> 00:54:34,187
She sends it to man in Belmont,
Massachusetts, a publisher,
857
00:54:34,283 --> 00:54:36,052
who sends it to a tanner in Sharon,
858
00:54:36,148 --> 00:54:40,300
the tanner sends it to his brother-in-law,
a sheet metal worker, also in Sharon,
859
00:54:40,395 --> 00:54:43,372
who sends it to a dentist,
who sends it to a printer,
860
00:54:43,468 --> 00:54:45,772
who sends it to Mr. Jacobs.
861
00:54:45,868 --> 00:54:48,385
Seven links in the chain.
862
00:54:50,347 --> 00:54:53,005
The average chain, in fact,
involves 5.5 links.
863
00:54:53,101 --> 00:54:56,476
That is, we determine that less
than six degrees of separation exist
864
00:54:56,571 --> 00:54:58,829
between you
and several million strangers
865
00:54:58,925 --> 00:55:01,869
who you may or may not encounter
in your lifetime.
866
00:55:02,988 --> 00:55:06,029
When we understand the structure
of this communication net,
867
00:55:06,125 --> 00:55:10,573
we stand to grasp a good deal more
about the fabric of society.
868
00:55:10,925 --> 00:55:15,086
Maybe it's not necessarily justified,
this common human complaint.
869
00:55:15,182 --> 00:55:19,688
The feeling that we're all cut off,
alienated, and alone.
870
00:55:21,130 --> 00:55:24,430
I don't need to go into detail
to hide the things I remember,
871
00:55:24,526 --> 00:55:26,798
when I was 16, in Bucharest.
872
00:55:26,894 --> 00:55:29,455
The killings, torture, terror.
873
00:55:29,551 --> 00:55:32,271
- Why are you bringing this up now?
- It's relevant.
874
00:55:32,367 --> 00:55:36,622
The man was just turned down
for tenure at Harvard.
875
00:55:36,718 --> 00:55:38,639
You wish to give the tragedy
some perspective.
876
00:55:38,735 --> 00:55:41,743
It's not just that.
Because, bear with me,
877
00:55:41,839 --> 00:55:46,223
they took people to the slaughterhouse
and strung them on meat hooks, still alive.
878
00:55:46,319 --> 00:55:48,560
Cut open their bellies like cattle.
879
00:55:48,656 --> 00:55:50,543
A five-year-old boy.
880
00:55:50,639 --> 00:55:54,448
And they watched the entrails
spill out, the blood drain,
881
00:55:54,544 --> 00:55:58,544
and they wrote notes and they pinned
the papers to the bodies.
882
00:55:59,023 --> 00:56:00,875
"Kosher."
883
00:56:24,785 --> 00:56:27,666
- Serge was just giving me a lesson in...
- Reality?
884
00:56:27,762 --> 00:56:31,852
The pogroms, in Romania during the war.
885
00:56:32,753 --> 00:56:34,957
The Iron Guard,
886
00:56:35,377 --> 00:56:39,548
they lit people on fire,
threw them off buildings.
887
00:56:40,817 --> 00:56:46,066
This is my charming way of saying
your husband's work is very important...
888
00:56:46,162 --> 00:56:47,827
and timely.
889
00:56:48,019 --> 00:56:51,757
Because the techniques change,
the victims change,
890
00:56:51,889 --> 00:56:55,982
but it's still a question.
How do these things happen?
891
00:56:56,625 --> 00:56:59,533
How are they institutionalized?
892
00:57:00,819 --> 00:57:03,991
The Algerian War, the tortures.
893
00:57:04,087 --> 00:57:07,059
- Do you know about this in the States?
- Yeah, of course.
894
00:57:07,731 --> 00:57:11,731
You should do the obedience
experiments in Europe, Stanley.
895
00:57:11,827 --> 00:57:15,784
France, Germany. Recreate them.
896
00:57:16,372 --> 00:57:18,607
Will it be different?
897
00:57:19,154 --> 00:57:22,435
- I don't think so.
- Who would fund them?
898
00:57:22,531 --> 00:57:26,165
The experiments are unethical. Remember?
899
00:57:26,611 --> 00:57:29,556
No tenure, no funding.
900
00:57:29,652 --> 00:57:32,404
And the IRBs? The IRBs, yes,
901
00:57:32,500 --> 00:57:34,536
basically you cannot do
these experiments
902
00:57:34,632 --> 00:57:37,397
without submitting something
to the Internal Review Board.
903
00:57:37,493 --> 00:57:38,998
He'll finish his book,
904
00:57:39,094 --> 00:57:44,335
and then Stanley wants to move on from
the obedience experiments, and why not?
905
00:57:45,492 --> 00:57:46,827
Well...
906
00:57:46,923 --> 00:57:51,121
you look under a rock, ugly things
crawl out, and we have to face them.
907
00:57:53,557 --> 00:57:57,974
Your other experiments,
the letters, the maps,
908
00:57:58,070 --> 00:58:01,540
clever, hopeful, but...
909
00:58:01,924 --> 00:58:04,214
you have to get back
to the obedience experiments.
910
00:58:04,310 --> 00:58:07,526
- I do. I have to.
- Yes, Stanley.
911
00:58:07,622 --> 00:58:10,000
You have no choice.
912
00:58:17,302 --> 00:58:19,703
My new job at City University
of New York
913
00:58:19,799 --> 00:58:23,190
involves a jump in pay
and full professorship.
914
00:58:23,286 --> 00:58:26,004
The head of the department
of social psychology.
915
00:58:26,551 --> 00:58:29,209
The City of New York
is a major laboratory,
916
00:58:29,305 --> 00:58:33,784
to be utilized in the research and training
of graduate students in social psychology.
917
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,371
That's from the CUNY brochure.
918
00:58:36,791 --> 00:58:38,739
I wrote it.
919
00:58:40,919 --> 00:58:45,089
Sasha finds an apartment for us in Riverdale
with a great view of the Hudson.
920
00:58:45,185 --> 00:58:50,035
Marc was born in 1967.
He hardly remembers Cambridge.
921
00:58:50,648 --> 00:58:54,201
Even, or especially when nothing
decisive is happening,
922
00:58:54,297 --> 00:58:57,332
time refuses to stand still.
923
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:04,697
I walk to the station every morning,
take the train into this city.
924
00:59:04,793 --> 00:59:07,156
I enjoy the routine.
925
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,492
Today's assignment.
926
00:59:12,588 --> 00:59:16,858
Get on a local bus, and then
with the bus in motion and loud enough
927
00:59:17,145 --> 00:59:21,496
to be heard by your fellow passengers,
sing your favorite song.
928
00:59:23,163 --> 00:59:24,954
Any song we want?
929
00:59:25,050 --> 00:59:29,126
Just as long as you know the words
and can sing them loud and clear.
930
00:59:29,222 --> 00:59:32,822
Pair up. Non-singer takes notes,
then switch roles.
931
00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:36,427
You may say, "so what...
932
00:59:36,523 --> 00:59:38,904
singing a song, anyone can do that."
933
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,075
Or, "I don't have to do that,
I'm an individual, not a conformist."
934
00:59:42,171 --> 00:59:46,875
Or, "This is silly, it doesn't change
the world to sing a song."
935
00:59:47,196 --> 00:59:50,106
My answer to you is simply this.
936
00:59:50,202 --> 00:59:53,556
Get on the bus and sing.
937
00:59:54,555 --> 00:59:57,323
Now go, right now. Come on.
938
01:00:01,419 --> 01:00:02,939
No humming.
939
01:00:13,628 --> 01:00:17,949
My next guest is professor of psychology
at the Graduate Center,
940
01:00:18,045 --> 01:00:19,710
the City University in New York.
941
01:00:19,805 --> 01:00:23,485
He's written a fascinating book,
a disturbing book.
942
01:00:23,580 --> 01:00:26,749
Obedience To Authority:
an Experimental View,
943
01:00:26,845 --> 01:00:28,990
just published by Harper and Row.
944
01:00:29,086 --> 01:00:34,984
Please welcome a very creative,
very controversial sociopsychologist.
945
01:00:35,368 --> 01:00:38,541
Stanley Milgram. Doctor. Dr. Milgram.
946
01:00:38,637 --> 01:00:42,943
So your subjects, they thought
the shocks were real,
947
01:00:43,038 --> 01:00:48,606
that they were delivering 450 volts,
65% of them.
948
01:00:48,702 --> 01:00:52,606
But they were not particularly
aggressive or sadistic people.
949
01:00:52,702 --> 01:00:56,318
They were a representative cross-section
of the average American citizen
950
01:00:56,414 --> 01:00:58,303
living within range of Yale University.
951
01:00:58,399 --> 01:01:01,503
I thought, yes, we'd do
the experiment in New Haven,
952
01:01:01,599 --> 01:01:04,095
and there'd be very limited obedience,
953
01:01:04,191 --> 01:01:07,423
and then we'd recreate
the experiment in, say, Berlin,
954
01:01:07,519 --> 01:01:11,163
and find the rate of obedience
to be much higher.
955
01:01:11,519 --> 01:01:14,007
Saved a bit on airfare, didn't you?
956
01:01:14,655 --> 01:01:17,311
So, let me get this straight.
957
01:01:17,406 --> 01:01:20,431
You did the experiment
in the early 60's?
958
01:01:20,527 --> 01:01:23,072
And here we are, 1974,
959
01:01:23,168 --> 01:01:26,144
and your book still feels like news.
960
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,315
Why is that?
961
01:01:29,439 --> 01:01:31,520
People don't have the resources
to resist authority.
962
01:01:31,616 --> 01:01:35,234
That's what the experiment teaches us.
But people don't wanna hear it.
963
01:01:35,330 --> 01:01:38,297
The experiment explains a kind of...
964
01:01:38,393 --> 01:01:41,199
flaw in social thinking.
965
01:01:41,294 --> 01:01:44,544
A deadening,
a suspension of moral value.
966
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:49,861
What would you say to your critics, critics
who would insist the moral lapse is yours?
967
01:01:50,369 --> 01:01:53,432
One of them cites
"the extremely callous,
968
01:01:53,528 --> 01:01:56,386
deceitful way the experiments
were carried out."
969
01:01:56,769 --> 01:02:00,385
Another calls them
"morally repugnant, vile,"
970
01:02:01,632 --> 01:02:04,856
"Milgram belongs on the other end
of the shock machine."
971
01:02:05,089 --> 01:02:09,283
There certainly is a certain kind
of Kafkaesque quality
972
01:02:09,378 --> 01:02:10,915
- to the experiments.
- Kafkaesque?
973
01:02:11,011 --> 01:02:13,858
The experiment taught me
something about the...
974
01:02:13,954 --> 01:02:16,099
plasticity of human nature.
975
01:02:16,195 --> 01:02:21,335
Not the evil, not the aggressiveness,
but a certain kind of malleability.
976
01:02:21,635 --> 01:02:24,547
65% of volunteers were obedient.
977
01:02:24,643 --> 01:02:28,132
That left 35% who recognized
a moral breach,
978
01:02:28,227 --> 01:02:31,539
took responsibility
for their actions and resisted.
979
01:02:31,779 --> 01:02:35,272
- There is no permanent tissue damage.
- That's your opinion.
980
01:02:35,368 --> 01:02:38,148
If he doesn't want to continue,
I'm taking orders from him.
981
01:02:38,244 --> 01:02:41,701
The experiment requires you continue.
You have no other choice.
982
01:02:41,797 --> 01:02:44,653
If this were Russia maybe,
but not in America.
983
01:02:45,923 --> 01:02:49,407
But obedience, compliance,
was more common.
984
01:02:51,043 --> 01:02:54,661
You tell yourself: "I wouldn't do that.
I'd never do that."
985
01:02:54,757 --> 01:02:57,668
But then, what did Montaigne say?
986
01:02:57,764 --> 01:02:59,792
"We are double in ourselves.
987
01:02:59,984 --> 01:03:04,222
What we believe we disbelieve,
and we cannot rid ourselves
988
01:03:04,318 --> 01:03:06,624
of what we condemn."
989
01:03:20,805 --> 01:03:22,598
Another one of my experiments.
990
01:03:22,694 --> 01:03:26,976
Hank, a CUNY grad student,
was the designated "crowd crystal"
991
01:03:27,072 --> 01:03:29,542
staring up at a fixed point in space,
992
01:03:29,638 --> 01:03:33,729
looking up at a non-existent
"something".
993
01:03:34,437 --> 01:03:37,159
As you multiply the confederates,
the people who stare up
994
01:03:37,255 --> 01:03:38,944
because we've recruited them
to stare up,
995
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,714
the number of people who actually stop
and look increases exponentially.
996
01:03:44,839 --> 01:03:47,387
Meanwhile, Obedience To Authority
997
01:03:47,483 --> 01:03:51,392
gets translated into eight languages
and nominated for a national book award.
998
01:03:55,111 --> 01:03:59,246
October 24th, 1974, 4:25pm.
999
01:03:59,342 --> 01:04:02,568
Sheila Jarcho, J-A-R...
1000
01:04:02,664 --> 01:04:06,052
- I know how to spell it, Stanley.
- ...C-H-O,
1001
01:04:06,148 --> 01:04:09,744
working on the mental maps project,
comes in and tells me errors were made
1002
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:13,716
in the neighborhood map,
already duplicated in some 500 copies.
1003
01:04:14,567 --> 01:04:17,120
Her facial expression
captures the attitude
1004
01:04:17,215 --> 01:04:20,172
that she's shown all along in her
capacity as research assistant.
1005
01:04:20,268 --> 01:04:23,012
Are my eyes really that close together?
1006
01:04:23,112 --> 01:04:25,385
On the whole, both men and women
are highly critical
1007
01:04:25,481 --> 01:04:27,465
when studying photographs of themselves.
1008
01:04:27,561 --> 01:04:31,303
The vanity factor's extraordinary
when people judge their own image.
1009
01:04:31,399 --> 01:04:34,070
Do you ever worry that everything's
sort of an anti-climax
1010
01:04:34,166 --> 01:04:38,393
since the obedience experiments,
and that your work...
1011
01:04:38,489 --> 01:04:41,439
really everything you're doing,
is just a flash in the pan?
1012
01:04:43,657 --> 01:04:47,211
The truth is, you're invested
in the idea of authority
1013
01:04:47,307 --> 01:04:49,802
and you love lording it over all of us.
1014
01:04:49,898 --> 01:04:52,331
Me, the other students,
and even your wife.
1015
01:04:52,426 --> 01:04:55,333
- Me?
- Well, fuck yeah.
1016
01:04:56,906 --> 01:05:02,059
I work here because I get paid for it
and I actually think it's kind of fun.
1017
01:05:02,155 --> 01:05:05,226
Sheila, what's wrong with you?
1018
01:05:05,946 --> 01:05:08,764
Just keep doing what he tells you to do.
1019
01:05:10,922 --> 01:05:13,100
I don't get along with all my students.
1020
01:05:13,196 --> 01:05:15,180
The flash in the pan?
1021
01:05:15,276 --> 01:05:18,188
How many people can manage
even that flash?
1022
01:05:18,475 --> 01:05:20,993
I've done some psych experiments,
but in my mind
1023
01:05:21,089 --> 01:05:24,332
I'm still about to write
my great Broadway musical.
1024
01:05:24,811 --> 01:05:26,760
4:27 pm.
1025
01:05:26,856 --> 01:05:30,252
Paul Hollander, looking tan and fit,
pays a visit from Massachusetts.
1026
01:05:30,348 --> 01:05:34,573
- Tan and fit and miserable.
- I am so sorry, Paul.
1027
01:05:34,669 --> 01:05:38,036
Well, another marriage down the drain.
I should've seen it coming.
1028
01:05:38,132 --> 01:05:41,997
It's terrible, it's rotten.
But you look good.
1029
01:05:42,093 --> 01:05:46,109
The worst of it is she's erected
a Berlin Wall between me and my daughter.
1030
01:05:46,414 --> 01:05:48,717
Nice place you've got here.
1031
01:05:48,813 --> 01:05:51,181
It isn't Harvard, but thank you.
1032
01:05:51,277 --> 01:05:54,752
Harvard would never have given you
an office half as grand as this,
1033
01:05:54,848 --> 01:05:57,102
or found you as bewitching a secretary.
1034
01:05:57,198 --> 01:05:59,880
Well, I just go where the work is.
1035
01:06:00,525 --> 01:06:03,657
So, aren't you going
to take my picture, then?
1036
01:06:04,189 --> 01:06:05,957
I'm considering it.
1037
01:06:13,965 --> 01:06:17,818
Do you ever feel invincible one moment
and then worthless the next?
1038
01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:23,063
Yes and no.
1039
01:06:30,638 --> 01:06:33,327
The camera begins to attract
its own subject matter.
1040
01:06:33,711 --> 01:06:36,230
It's no longer a passive recorder,
1041
01:06:36,326 --> 01:06:39,787
but actively attracts
the people it records.
1042
01:06:44,229 --> 01:06:46,570
Stanley Milgram?
1043
01:06:47,504 --> 01:06:50,283
How did I get to be so old?
1044
01:06:50,571 --> 01:06:53,132
What is the Kierkegaard quote?
1045
01:06:53,648 --> 01:06:56,305
"Life can always be...
1046
01:06:56,401 --> 01:06:58,576
Only be understood backward."
1047
01:06:58,672 --> 01:07:01,441
October 24th, 1974, 4:29 pm.
1048
01:07:01,537 --> 01:07:05,143
Conversation with Paul Hollander interrupted
by the arrival of a messenger...
1049
01:07:05,479 --> 01:07:10,706
bearing, at last, the German edition
of Obedience To Authority.
1050
01:07:10,994 --> 01:07:15,089
- With crass barbed wire cover design.
- Mein Gott.
1051
01:07:15,473 --> 01:07:17,874
- What's your name?
- Thomas Shine.
1052
01:07:17,970 --> 01:07:20,407
Mind participating in my experiment?
1053
01:07:21,248 --> 01:07:23,328
- It depends.
- He just wants to take your picture.
1054
01:07:23,423 --> 01:07:25,589
Everybody's doing it.
1055
01:07:26,258 --> 01:07:30,029
- Okay. I need a signature.
- Oh, yes.
1056
01:07:30,321 --> 01:07:35,169
He's interested in the unacknowledged
power of photographic images.
1057
01:07:36,305 --> 01:07:37,965
Okay.
1058
01:07:38,577 --> 01:07:41,971
"Life can only be understood backwards
1059
01:07:42,067 --> 01:07:45,524
but has to be lived forwards."
1060
01:07:57,107 --> 01:08:02,210
Around this time, I was also
working on The Familiar Stranger.
1061
01:08:04,116 --> 01:08:07,285
We take photographs of commuters
on a train platform.
1062
01:08:07,380 --> 01:08:10,132
Each figure in the photographs
are given a number.
1063
01:08:10,228 --> 01:08:13,792
The photos are duplicated,
and a week later the students follow up.
1064
01:08:15,956 --> 01:08:17,877
Hello. I'm a student at CUNY.
1065
01:08:17,973 --> 01:08:19,992
Would you mind filling out
this questionnaire?
1066
01:08:20,087 --> 01:08:21,717
- Okay.
- Also,
1067
01:08:21,813 --> 01:08:23,766
do you recognize any of these people?
1068
01:08:23,861 --> 01:08:25,205
No.
1069
01:08:25,301 --> 01:08:28,277
- What about here?
- Well, that's me.
1070
01:08:28,373 --> 01:08:32,651
- Yes. Can you identify anyone else?
- Not by name.
1071
01:08:33,716 --> 01:08:35,454
Most commuters recognize, on average,
1072
01:08:35,550 --> 01:08:38,921
four individuals they see in their
daily routine but never speak to.
1073
01:08:39,017 --> 01:08:40,407
Familiar strangers.
1074
01:08:40,503 --> 01:08:43,382
Amongst these are "sociometric stars".
1075
01:08:43,478 --> 01:08:48,146
Figures that they not only recognize
but even fantasize about.
1076
01:08:51,925 --> 01:08:56,279
They wonder what kind of lives these
strangers lead, what their jobs are like.
1077
01:08:56,375 --> 01:08:58,903
And if they ran into each other
in another place,
1078
01:08:58,999 --> 01:09:02,359
or if some emergency jolted them
out of this routine,
1079
01:09:02,455 --> 01:09:04,389
they might start to speak,
1080
01:09:04,485 --> 01:09:06,856
actually know one another.
1081
01:09:11,478 --> 01:09:14,552
I teach at CUNY, and I see you
out here all the time
1082
01:09:14,648 --> 01:09:17,048
and I wonder about the things
you must see.
1083
01:09:17,144 --> 01:09:19,384
You look familiar. What do you teach?
1084
01:09:19,480 --> 01:09:22,968
Social psychology. "The City
of New York is a vast laboratory."
1085
01:09:23,064 --> 01:09:25,048
I had no idea you were English.
You're English?
1086
01:09:25,144 --> 01:09:27,983
- Yes.
- Assuming that accent is real.
1087
01:09:28,079 --> 01:09:29,790
- I saw you on TV.
- No?
1088
01:09:29,886 --> 01:09:32,385
Good Morning America.
I knew you looked familiar.
1089
01:09:32,769 --> 01:09:35,663
He tortures people with electric shocks.
1090
01:09:35,759 --> 01:09:38,600
- That isn't accurate.
- He's very controversial.
1091
01:09:38,696 --> 01:09:40,761
Have you read my book? Have you?
1092
01:09:40,857 --> 01:09:42,906
I don't get a chance to read
as much as I'd like to.
1093
01:09:43,002 --> 01:09:44,889
- It's okay.
- I read the review.
1094
01:09:44,985 --> 01:09:48,760
- Well, there were many reviews.
- It was The Times, wasn't it?
1095
01:09:48,952 --> 01:09:52,090
- Harsh.
- Yes, it was. It was harsh.
1096
01:09:52,186 --> 01:09:56,917
It was nominated for an award, but yeah,
who cares? Why disabuse yourself?
1097
01:09:57,013 --> 01:09:58,298
What?
1098
01:09:58,394 --> 01:10:01,657
I don't wanna make you
angry, ma'am. Just...
1099
01:10:01,753 --> 01:10:06,549
have a nice day, okay?
Abe, it was a pleasure meeting you.
1100
01:10:16,122 --> 01:10:20,219
I was bowled over when I first read
about it, and you in The Times,
1101
01:10:20,315 --> 01:10:24,955
and then I read the original material
and the scientific journals, and I mulled.
1102
01:10:25,051 --> 01:10:27,096
- You mulled?
- I mulled.
1103
01:10:27,192 --> 01:10:31,067
This mulling produced the idea
to do a TV play
1104
01:10:31,163 --> 01:10:34,332
of a hopefully high caliber,
for an accepted show,
1105
01:10:34,428 --> 01:10:37,884
of a decently adult level,
treating, in fictional form,
1106
01:10:37,979 --> 01:10:40,700
the kind of experiments
you performed and its aftermath.
1107
01:10:40,796 --> 01:10:43,260
Using it as a springboard
for my own characters
1108
01:10:43,356 --> 01:10:46,511
and situational inventions.
1109
01:10:46,607 --> 01:10:49,943
I... I kept this.
1110
01:10:51,067 --> 01:10:53,436
D'you see how yellow?
1111
01:10:53,532 --> 01:10:56,157
Stan, sorry, help me.
I was just wondering.
1112
01:10:56,253 --> 01:10:58,555
Your name, its derivation?
1113
01:10:58,908 --> 01:11:02,645
Milgram means "pomegranate" in Hebrew.
It's one of the seven fruits of the Bible.
1114
01:11:02,741 --> 01:11:05,549
I'm Jewish...
if that's what you're asking?
1115
01:11:05,645 --> 01:11:07,774
Apples is another, right?
1116
01:11:07,869 --> 01:11:11,006
Figs, grapes. Olives, they're a fruit?
1117
01:11:11,102 --> 01:11:15,421
Anyhow, when you point out
the parallels, the connections,
1118
01:11:15,517 --> 01:11:18,462
Hannah Arendt, The Banality Of Evil,
1119
01:11:18,558 --> 01:11:22,974
the My Lai massacre, all of that,
I see where you're coming from.
1120
01:11:23,070 --> 01:11:26,454
I'm here because a serious
situation is pending
1121
01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:29,629
with regard to the drama I propose.
1122
01:11:29,725 --> 01:11:34,302
Playhouse 90, the Columbia
Broadcasting System.
1123
01:11:34,398 --> 01:11:36,539
CBS.
1124
01:11:51,102 --> 01:11:53,951
Michele, ma belle. Ca Va?
1125
01:11:54,239 --> 01:11:55,547
Hi.
1126
01:11:56,671 --> 01:11:59,226
I was just gonna get some ice cream.
1127
01:12:17,791 --> 01:12:20,865
Whenever I'm up late like this,
which is a lot...
1128
01:12:21,344 --> 01:12:23,875
- I think of your grandfather.
- Sam.
1129
01:12:23,971 --> 01:12:26,941
Yeah, that was his name. Yeah.
1130
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:30,909
- He died.
- That's right, in his sleep.
1131
01:12:31,005 --> 01:12:35,542
It's the luckiest way, people say,
not to know what's happening.
1132
01:12:36,481 --> 01:12:38,909
Why... why did he die?
1133
01:12:40,769 --> 01:12:42,973
Heart disease.
1134
01:12:43,265 --> 01:12:47,209
It was before you were born,
before your mother could meet him.
1135
01:12:48,417 --> 01:12:50,251
He was a baker,
1136
01:12:50,347 --> 01:12:53,858
- his specialty were cakes.
- He worked late.
1137
01:12:53,954 --> 01:12:56,417
I got it from him.
Maybe you'll get it from me.
1138
01:13:00,547 --> 01:13:03,107
Basically there are
three types of people.
1139
01:13:03,203 --> 01:13:06,038
That's what your research confirms.
1140
01:13:06,134 --> 01:13:08,548
There's the person
who makes things happen,
1141
01:13:08,644 --> 01:13:11,485
the person who watches things happen,
1142
01:13:11,581 --> 01:13:14,531
and the person who says,
"What happened?"
1143
01:13:14,627 --> 01:13:16,650
Right?
1144
01:13:17,571 --> 01:13:21,444
I'm a dramatist, I was explicit,
not a scientist.
1145
01:13:21,731 --> 01:13:26,564
Your work is a springboard
for revealing basic human truths.
1146
01:13:26,660 --> 01:13:29,509
You get your consultant's fee.
What's the problem?
1147
01:13:29,605 --> 01:13:31,973
It isn't about the money.
1148
01:13:36,483 --> 01:13:40,545
I'm sorry, she needs to speak
to you again. She says it's urgent.
1149
01:13:42,436 --> 01:13:44,759
Tell her to relax.
1150
01:13:51,285 --> 01:13:53,300
Excuse me.
1151
01:14:31,143 --> 01:14:33,274
Dr. Stanley?
1152
01:14:34,535 --> 01:14:36,071
Yes?
1153
01:14:36,167 --> 01:14:39,474
Mr. Bellak won't be back
in his office this afternoon.
1154
01:14:40,039 --> 01:14:41,640
Excuse me?
1155
01:14:41,736 --> 01:14:44,359
He can't talk to you today anymore.
1156
01:14:44,455 --> 01:14:46,851
He says you can visit the set.
1157
01:14:49,159 --> 01:14:51,099
Okay.
1158
01:15:05,064 --> 01:15:08,392
So, you sold him the rights?
1159
01:15:09,128 --> 01:15:11,023
No.
1160
01:15:11,119 --> 01:15:13,001
But it's a gray area.
1161
01:15:13,097 --> 01:15:16,649
But it's your book, it's your work,
it's your experiments.
1162
01:15:16,745 --> 01:15:19,722
Either you did it or you sold it
or you didn't. Right?
1163
01:15:19,818 --> 01:15:22,474
In the opinion of Harper's
legal department,
1164
01:15:22,570 --> 01:15:26,570
we don't have a supportable claim,
not on the basis of copyright infringement,
1165
01:15:26,666 --> 01:15:29,450
because the show is fiction.
1166
01:15:29,546 --> 01:15:31,370
Are we finished with this?
1167
01:15:31,466 --> 01:15:34,565
They gave me a consulting fee.
Is that enough?
1168
01:15:35,145 --> 01:15:37,579
Your father's turning
into a fictional character.
1169
01:15:37,675 --> 01:15:39,434
- Why?
- Yes, why?
1170
01:15:39,530 --> 01:15:43,403
- And why do they have to make you a goy?
- It's not about me. I'm just a springboard.
1171
01:15:43,499 --> 01:15:45,771
- Why?
- I don't know.
1172
01:15:45,867 --> 01:15:49,561
Oh, I see. So, you had no choice?
1173
01:15:49,656 --> 01:15:53,035
Look... I could just give the money back
but they'd make the show anyway.
1174
01:15:53,131 --> 01:15:55,307
Why don't I give the money back?
1175
01:15:55,403 --> 01:15:57,484
I'll give the money back!
That's a good idea.
1176
01:15:57,675 --> 01:16:01,030
You know what?
You don't have to be so snippy.
1177
01:16:11,178 --> 01:16:14,508
They don't just come in and sadistically
pull these switches, bing, bing,
1178
01:16:14,604 --> 01:16:18,119
they have an inner struggle not to obey.
1179
01:16:19,212 --> 01:16:21,389
Their inner pain
is the evidence to that.
1180
01:16:21,485 --> 01:16:25,172
Steven, what you're doing
is very important, and I love the design.
1181
01:16:25,268 --> 01:16:27,399
It's audacious.
1182
01:16:28,493 --> 01:16:29,902
And?
1183
01:16:29,998 --> 01:16:31,774
I am being careful,
1184
01:16:31,870 --> 01:16:36,745
which is why I've got tenure around here
long before black became popular.
1185
01:16:37,197 --> 01:16:39,534
It's tricky. Very tricky.
1186
01:16:39,630 --> 01:16:43,342
There'll be criticism of anything
breaking new ground.
1187
01:16:43,438 --> 01:16:45,646
There are times when your life
resembles a bad movie,
1188
01:16:45,742 --> 01:16:49,602
but nothing prepares you if your life
actually becomes a bad movie.
1189
01:16:49,698 --> 01:16:54,983
Here's Dr. Steven Turner, Steven/Stanley,
Turner/Milgram, of Rutledge University,
1190
01:16:55,079 --> 01:17:00,078
a bachelor and a WASP,
being played by William Shatner,
1191
01:17:00,174 --> 01:17:02,991
four years after
his last Star Trek episode.
1192
01:17:03,087 --> 01:17:07,118
Ossie Davis plays his colleague
and best friend.
1193
01:17:07,214 --> 01:17:10,735
I don't believe
you're adequately considering...
1194
01:17:11,214 --> 01:17:12,719
faculty reaction.
1195
01:17:12,815 --> 01:17:16,311
You may find yourself
teaching in Siberia.
1196
01:17:28,495 --> 01:17:31,147
This has to be somewhat weird for you.
1197
01:17:32,559 --> 01:17:37,209
Well, I've made some films
myself actually. Documentaries.
1198
01:17:37,305 --> 01:17:40,817
I think Ossie may have meant,
and I was wondering also,
1199
01:17:40,913 --> 01:17:45,740
do you have a best friend
who is, you know, a brother?
1200
01:17:46,384 --> 01:17:50,994
I mean this tradition
of a black best friend,
1201
01:17:51,377 --> 01:17:52,881
where did that come from?
1202
01:17:52,977 --> 01:17:55,250
You don't have
a black best friend, Bill?
1203
01:17:55,346 --> 01:17:57,786
No. Do you?
1204
01:17:58,288 --> 01:18:00,786
This character isn't me.
I'm just a springboard.
1205
01:18:00,882 --> 01:18:05,406
Did you know I did the first
interracial kiss in US TV history?
1206
01:18:05,874 --> 01:18:08,204
Star Trek, sure.
1207
01:18:08,626 --> 01:18:11,921
I kissed Nichelle Nichols on network TV.
1208
01:18:12,017 --> 01:18:14,694
Controversial, but you did it.
1209
01:18:14,933 --> 01:18:17,725
The network was... nervous.
1210
01:18:17,970 --> 01:18:20,627
They insisted we shoot
an alternative version,
1211
01:18:20,723 --> 01:18:24,568
but during the close up I did this...
1212
01:18:27,987 --> 01:18:30,803
First time, 1968,
1213
01:18:30,899 --> 01:18:33,173
in the history of TV.
1214
01:18:35,922 --> 01:18:38,767
I've read about
your experiments, Doctor.
1215
01:18:41,587 --> 01:18:43,860
Did you happen to use any black folk?
1216
01:18:43,955 --> 01:18:46,319
Yes, of course.
1217
01:18:48,467 --> 01:18:50,036
And the results?
1218
01:18:50,132 --> 01:18:54,740
They fared the same as everyone else.
Roughly 65% compliant.
1219
01:18:55,316 --> 01:18:57,460
You didn't force or threaten
anyone, right?
1220
01:18:57,556 --> 01:18:59,317
- No.
- You didn't twist anyone's arm?
1221
01:18:59,413 --> 01:19:02,293
- No, no.
- Didn't hold a gun to anyone's head?
1222
01:19:02,389 --> 01:19:05,091
You see, it brings to mind when
I was six or seven years old,
1223
01:19:05,187 --> 01:19:07,621
coming home from school.
1224
01:19:07,717 --> 01:19:10,852
Two policemen call me over
from their car.
1225
01:19:10,948 --> 01:19:14,838
"Come over here, boy. Come on over."
1226
01:19:14,934 --> 01:19:17,723
- Have I heard this one?
- No.
1227
01:19:18,107 --> 01:19:22,176
They tell me to get into the car,
and they take me to the precinct station.
1228
01:19:22,902 --> 01:19:27,575
Then one of them takes a jar of cane
syrup and pours it over my head.
1229
01:19:28,150 --> 01:19:30,052
And they both laugh
1230
01:19:30,148 --> 01:19:32,585
like it's the funniest thing
in the world.
1231
01:19:32,681 --> 01:19:34,817
I laugh too.
1232
01:19:35,605 --> 01:19:39,806
Then they give me hunks
of peanut brittle and let me go.
1233
01:19:40,790 --> 01:19:44,047
It took me 30 years
before I told anyone.
1234
01:19:44,918 --> 01:19:47,447
Where was this, Ossie? Down South?
1235
01:19:47,543 --> 01:19:50,392
Well, it doesn't matter where,
and that's my point.
1236
01:19:50,487 --> 01:19:54,007
You see, you don't have to go to Germany
to learn about obedience to authority.
1237
01:19:54,103 --> 01:19:58,240
This in the book. Actually, it's the tenth
chapter, which very few people get to.
1238
01:19:58,336 --> 01:20:00,211
The Tenth Level.
1239
01:20:00,502 --> 01:20:02,455
The agentic state,
1240
01:20:02,743 --> 01:20:07,239
in which the demands of the democratically
installed authority conflict with conscience.
1241
01:20:07,335 --> 01:20:09,907
The Banality Of Evil.
1242
01:20:12,503 --> 01:20:15,097
I don't take responsibility.
Do you take responsibility?
1243
01:20:15,193 --> 01:20:18,137
I take responsibility.
Now count that as wrong.
1244
01:20:18,233 --> 01:20:19,641
No response counts as wrong.
1245
01:20:19,737 --> 01:20:22,873
You pull the switch then, dammit,
come on, you pull the switch.
1246
01:20:22,969 --> 01:20:25,460
Mr. Dahlquist, that's your job.
1247
01:20:26,296 --> 01:20:30,580
No, I won't.
Nobody can learn anything like this.
1248
01:20:31,544 --> 01:20:33,526
There was a time, I suspect,
1249
01:20:33,622 --> 01:20:36,666
when men and women could give a fully
human response to any situation.
1250
01:20:36,762 --> 01:20:40,857
When we could be fully absorbed
in the world as human beings.
1251
01:20:40,953 --> 01:20:43,157
But more often, now...
1252
01:20:44,025 --> 01:20:47,610
people don't get to see the whole situation
but only some small part of it.
1253
01:20:47,706 --> 01:20:53,338
There's a division of labor, and people
carry out small, narrow, specialized jobs,
1254
01:20:53,434 --> 01:20:57,606
and we can't act without some
sort of direction from on high.
1255
01:20:58,298 --> 01:21:00,827
I call this "the agentic state".
1256
01:21:00,923 --> 01:21:03,195
The individual yields to authority,
1257
01:21:03,291 --> 01:21:07,158
and in doing so becomes alienated
from his own actions.
1258
01:21:07,867 --> 01:21:10,171
Mr. Dahlquist, you agreed to the rules.
1259
01:21:10,267 --> 01:21:13,820
The agentic state is "store policy".
1260
01:21:13,916 --> 01:21:17,018
It's "I'm just doing my job."
1261
01:21:17,114 --> 01:21:19,356
Or "That's not my job."
1262
01:21:19,452 --> 01:21:22,940
Or "I don't make the rules."
"We don't do that here."
1263
01:21:23,036 --> 01:21:26,843
"Just following orders." "It's the law."
1264
01:21:26,939 --> 01:21:30,214
In the agentic state, the individual
defines himself as an instrument
1265
01:21:30,309 --> 01:21:32,573
carrying out the wishes of others.
1266
01:21:32,669 --> 01:21:36,220
A soldier, a nurse,
an administrator. An actor.
1267
01:21:36,316 --> 01:21:41,468
A corporate employee,
or even, yes, academics and artists.
1268
01:21:41,564 --> 01:21:45,532
- Please continue.
- Oh, God. Oh, God.
1269
01:21:45,628 --> 01:21:48,344
- Mr. Dahlquist?
- Just shut up a minute!
1270
01:21:48,860 --> 01:21:50,809
Hold on.
1271
01:21:53,926 --> 01:21:57,374
- Come on, come on.
- Son of a bitch!
1272
01:21:57,470 --> 01:22:00,094
A person has a choice.
1273
01:22:00,190 --> 01:22:03,198
He or she chooses to become agentic.
1274
01:22:03,293 --> 01:22:05,566
But once you assume the role,
1275
01:22:05,662 --> 01:22:08,281
it's almost impossible to go back.
1276
01:22:09,981 --> 01:22:14,014
Wrong. 195 volts.
1277
01:22:14,110 --> 01:22:15,869
"Dance."
1278
01:22:17,214 --> 01:22:20,478
- Let me out of here! Let me out!
- Continue, please.
1279
01:22:20,574 --> 01:22:23,449
We always asked, "Is there anything
the man could've said
1280
01:22:23,545 --> 01:22:25,567
to stop you from administering
the shocks?"
1281
01:22:25,663 --> 01:22:27,904
And they'd always say:
"I don't think so. No."
1282
01:22:28,000 --> 01:22:30,666
I told you I have a heart condition!
1283
01:22:37,983 --> 01:22:40,663
Michele. Sit up here.
1284
01:22:40,759 --> 01:22:42,502
All right?
1285
01:22:44,895 --> 01:22:47,218
Could we get a couple of hot chocolates?
You want chocolate?
1286
01:22:47,314 --> 01:22:49,379
- Yes, please.
- Hot chocolates all around?
1287
01:22:49,475 --> 01:22:51,618
Yeah, yeah. Do you want anything?
1288
01:22:51,714 --> 01:22:53,727
Okay, no, we're fine.
1289
01:22:53,823 --> 01:22:57,307
I need you to stay put,
stay in your seats. Okay?
1290
01:23:06,656 --> 01:23:08,586
I'm sorry.
1291
01:23:09,985 --> 01:23:13,179
I could say it a thousand times
and mean it every time.
1292
01:23:14,881 --> 01:23:18,109
Marc, turn around in your seat.
1293
01:23:24,546 --> 01:23:26,717
Piaget.
1294
01:23:29,025 --> 01:23:32,284
You remember
when I was translating Piaget?
1295
01:23:33,986 --> 01:23:37,181
I hit this line about child development.
1296
01:23:37,570 --> 01:23:40,235
It's the specific point...
1297
01:23:40,331 --> 01:23:42,970
when the growing child
is able to recognize a gap
1298
01:23:43,066 --> 01:23:46,147
between what exists
and what might exist.
1299
01:23:46,243 --> 01:23:47,705
And it occurred to me,
1300
01:23:47,801 --> 01:23:51,723
we choose our reality
when we choose another person.
1301
01:23:54,402 --> 01:23:56,676
What does that mean?
1302
01:23:56,772 --> 01:23:58,788
Marriage is not a fantasy.
1303
01:23:58,884 --> 01:24:01,943
No, no, no.
1304
01:24:02,039 --> 01:24:04,819
Right. Right.
1305
01:24:06,499 --> 01:24:09,119
But it is a choice.
1306
01:24:10,212 --> 01:24:12,476
You have to know...
1307
01:24:13,339 --> 01:24:15,630
that I choose you.
1308
01:24:16,451 --> 01:24:19,263
Every day I choose you.
1309
01:24:30,532 --> 01:24:32,821
1984.
1310
01:24:32,917 --> 01:24:36,860
1984 was a big year for me.
My lecture fees peaked,
1311
01:24:36,956 --> 01:24:40,908
I was asked to speak all over the world,
about the obedience experiments...
1312
01:24:41,004 --> 01:24:44,352
of course... in relation
to Orwell's prophetic book.
1313
01:24:44,448 --> 01:24:47,878
A book that describes
a totalitarian world
1314
01:24:47,974 --> 01:24:51,553
where people aren't very good
at thinking for themselves.
1315
01:24:57,846 --> 01:25:00,263
Who can explain it?
1316
01:25:00,358 --> 01:25:02,855
Who can tell you why
1317
01:25:02,951 --> 01:25:05,623
Fools give you reasons
1318
01:25:05,719 --> 01:25:08,313
Wise men
1319
01:25:08,409 --> 01:25:11,817
Never try
1320
01:25:14,214 --> 01:25:18,524
1984 was also the year that I died.
1321
01:25:28,040 --> 01:25:30,418
I was 51.
1322
01:25:36,008 --> 01:25:39,497
Excuse me? We need to see
a doctor immediately.
1323
01:25:39,593 --> 01:25:42,473
I'm Stanley Milgram. This is my ID.
1324
01:25:42,569 --> 01:25:45,614
I believe I'm having
my fifth heart attack.
1325
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:50,314
- Dr. Heissenbuttel...
- That's who treated me last time.
1326
01:25:50,410 --> 01:25:54,399
- You need to fill this out.
- The agentic personality.
1327
01:26:54,699 --> 01:26:56,780
No one can truly know
what they might or might not do
1328
01:26:56,876 --> 01:27:00,669
when presented with the demands
of a particular situation.
1329
01:27:00,764 --> 01:27:03,292
In 2008, a professor
at Santa Clara University
1330
01:27:03,388 --> 01:27:07,604
replicated the obedience experiments
and got roughly the same results.
1331
01:27:07,700 --> 01:27:11,310
Over 60% of volunteers
delivered the full shocks.
1332
01:27:11,693 --> 01:27:16,173
In 2010, the experiments were duplicated
on a French reality TV show,
1333
01:27:16,269 --> 01:27:18,861
Le Jeu de la Mort, The Game of Death.
1334
01:27:18,957 --> 01:27:22,286
Participants were egged on
by a live studio audience.
1335
01:27:22,382 --> 01:27:25,224
Over 80% went all the way.
1336
01:27:32,589 --> 01:27:35,182
Alexandra Milgram, Sasha,
1337
01:27:35,278 --> 01:27:39,073
continues to live in the apartment
we shared in Riverdale.
1338
01:27:39,169 --> 01:27:43,758
Our children live with their children
near Boston and Toronto.
1339
01:27:43,854 --> 01:27:46,282
Sasha never remarried.
1340
01:27:51,087 --> 01:27:53,711
The obedience experiments
are cited and discussed
1341
01:27:53,807 --> 01:27:58,090
in nearly every introductory
psychology textbook worldwide.
1342
01:27:58,655 --> 01:28:03,425
My obedience film is screened
for every incoming class at Westpoint.
1343
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:08,721
And my methods and results continue
to be challenged, scorned, debunked,
1344
01:28:08,817 --> 01:28:11,632
yet every time a new outrage
is unleashed into the world,
1345
01:28:11,728 --> 01:28:14,448
sanctioned and systematic acts
of violence,
1346
01:28:14,544 --> 01:28:17,476
the obedience experiments
re-enter the conversation,
1347
01:28:17,572 --> 01:28:20,779
reframing unanswerable questions.
1348
01:28:21,455 --> 01:28:23,825
You could say we're puppets.
1349
01:28:23,921 --> 01:28:27,841
But I believe that we are puppets
1350
01:28:27,937 --> 01:28:30,898
with perception, with awareness.
1351
01:28:30,994 --> 01:28:33,918
Sometimes we can see the strings
1352
01:28:34,014 --> 01:28:40,262
and, perhaps, our awareness
is the first step in our liberation.
1353
01:29:35,795 --> 01:29:40,238
Some enchanted evening
1354
01:29:41,773 --> 01:29:46,218
You may see a stranger
1355
01:29:47,451 --> 01:29:50,882
You may see a stranger
1356
01:29:50,978 --> 01:29:56,548
Across a crowded room
1357
01:29:56,644 --> 01:30:00,987
And somehow you know
1358
01:30:02,146 --> 01:30:06,482
You know even then
1359
01:30:07,803 --> 01:30:11,905
That somewhere you'll see him
1360
01:30:12,001 --> 01:30:17,149
Again and again
1361
01:30:20,821 --> 01:30:25,297
Some enchanted evening
1362
01:30:26,435 --> 01:30:30,908
Someone may be laughing
1363
01:30:32,173 --> 01:30:35,617
You may hear him laughing
1364
01:30:35,713 --> 01:30:41,225
Across a crowded room
1365
01:30:41,321 --> 01:30:45,657
And night after night
1366
01:30:46,530 --> 01:30:50,949
As strange as it seems
1367
01:30:51,746 --> 01:30:55,554
The sound of his laughter
1368
01:30:55,650 --> 01:31:01,024
Will sing in your dreams
1369
01:31:04,052 --> 01:31:06,924
Who can explain it?
1370
01:31:07,020 --> 01:31:09,839
Who can tell you why?
1371
01:31:09,935 --> 01:31:13,019
Fools give you reasons
1372
01:31:13,115 --> 01:31:18,545
Wise men never try
1373
01:31:19,869 --> 01:31:24,151
Some enchanted evening
1374
01:31:25,733 --> 01:31:31,079
When you find your true love
1375
01:31:31,175 --> 01:31:34,639
When you feel him call you
1376
01:31:34,735 --> 01:31:39,994
Across a crowded room
1377
01:31:40,089 --> 01:31:44,421
Then fly to his side
1378
01:31:45,284 --> 01:31:50,565
And make him your own
1379
01:31:50,661 --> 01:31:54,657
Or all through your life you
1380
01:31:54,753 --> 01:32:00,276
Will dream all alone
1381
01:32:03,982 --> 01:32:07,286
Once you have found him
1382
01:32:07,382 --> 01:32:10,789
Never let him go
1383
01:32:10,885 --> 01:32:14,519
Once you have found him
1384
01:32:14,615 --> 01:32:17,905
Never
1385
01:32:18,001 --> 01:32:21,730
Let him
1386
01:32:21,826 --> 01:32:24,303
Go